I think it is important to unpack what drives the manosphere, thoroughly examine it, and talk about what we find - openly, honestly, and publicly. We can do this without rage. My own take is that we can already name some aspects of the root cause - patriarchy, privilege (dominated by white privilege) and entitlement which then emerges as misogyny and violence towards women. But where does this come from? I think it is fundamentally that the world is created by men for men and centered around the freedom of men (primarily white men). Men occupy the same spaces as women but they live in an entirely different world. I stumbled upon this when comparing notes about traveling with a white male friend. He moves through the world completely free - wearing whatever he wants, driving late nights, making friends at 2 am in the gas stations. I don't. I drive nervously at night, throw on a jacket even if it's hot at night, zip in and out very fast at the 2 am gas stations and skip every gas station that isn't well lit with people. There is a fundamental difference between how I engage the world and how he does. He is free and I am constrained. This is true in every situation - business interactions, getting a part to repair a car, even just sending an email to a customer. Men don't understand that this special world of theirs exists because they live in it and when we try to point it out to them they get angry and defensive. I think the 4B movement was a way to reclaim some of our freedom and I also think this is why the manobros got really upset and said things like "your body my choice." I think until we can understand this fundamental difference, articulate it, and help our male friends see it, all of the "fixes" are just bandaids. I did explain this to my male friend and it moved the needle a bit - he recognized areas where he objectifies women and how this is unfair to the woman he is objectifying and is making a conscious effort to stop - not perfect but progress.
One point I want to add (my post was already long) is that the next step is for us to define what freedom would really look like for women (and all persons who are not afforded the freedom created by primarily white men). What does that really look like? Once defined how do we go about creating a world that looks like this? Most manobros are not going to want others to have true freedom - that's fine - they are free to have their own ideas as long as their freedom does not impinge upon mine. They don't have a right to my body and should they assault me the penalty should be swift and severe. I also have the right not to engage them - like the 4B movement and they are free to be upset about it - I simply don't care. But there are men unaware of the world they inhabit and who, once aware, are able to reframe and these are the men we engage with to help us build the world where freedom isn't just for a select few. Yes, this is very idealistic, but why not? We create the societies we live in why can't we create this one?
Not talking about sexual assaults did not help. Look at all the court cases, books and so forth it took to make men aware there are negative consequences to their actions. If only there were a way to identify and shame those men in the manosphere. Whatever light can be shown on this ugly secretive misogyny can only help develop consequences.
The court case against META and YouTube reported on today is encouraging. The successful Plaintive's case was that corporations were liable for the emotional damages done to a vulnerable teenage girl due to the addictive nature of the content carried by their services.
It would be interesting to know if a case for damages could be built linking the content on the manosphere and the internet providers that carry that content.
I would love to hear an attorney's opinion about this.
This discussion came up on a reddit thread for psychotherapists, by a woman who wanted insight on what "works" for men who are really indoctrinated with the red pill. One poster challenged her that she seemed to want to change him (the theoretical young male client). If it were me, I'd have said, guilty as charged. Yet, many therapists, both men and women, have found that our skills do reach men who come to therapy, (if they stay long enough), who eventually start seeing the cracks in their views. Some find that many women are not so awful as broadcast by their brothers. But it's a problem I've been watching and trying to understand - and have some healing role in - for years. There's a wound in there. But there are people, let's say a Steve Bannon kinda guy, maybe, who have no desire to change a thing, except to show more rage, extract yet more revenge. And, then what? Following, bc this issue is near and dear to my heart.
I've just been reading the mythology of Eris, and the revenge coming from the woman scorned. But her deeper message is to expose social injustice and there's a better way to do that than getting stuck in rage. But maybe the rage is needed, at least as a starting point.
“There's a wound in there.” Yeah that’s the part of the documentary I found most interesting - all of these men have traumatic pasts - none of them had fathers that were there.
“Ignoring them doesn’t seem to work. But reacting only with outrage doesn’t seem to dissolve them either.”
I agree and in this vein I actually think Theroux’s documentary is a pretty good course of action because he doesn’t go in and yell and scream at these guys - (that’s just what the internet does all the time and it doesn’t seem to help) Instead, he asks questions and displays their idiocy all on their own.
I doubt the documentary will do much to change the men on camera’s point of view but I do think it’s helpful that we are more educated about what’s out there.
I was an employment for 28 years and it’s clear that corporate culture is larger than anyone individual, including the CEO.
So when somebody comes into a company culture, that culture will drive their behavior far more than most people realize.
When you create a healthy culture, the bad actors get flushed out very quickly.
I wonder how that might apply to the culture of a nation.
I don’t need to see a documentary about it. I wonder what it would be like if we all had a lot less tolerance for manosphere behaviors that have been allowed to thrive in the underworld and are now spilling out into the mainstream.
Everyone wants to be Seen. And seeing things as they are is the first step in any problem solving.
Is there some way to merge these two “seen”s?
Is there a way to see the Manosphere and see the vulnerable people it is trapping at the same time? (I haven’t watched it - maybe the documentary does that.)
But how do you make someone feel seen when your competition is validating every horrible thought they’ve had? “I see your housing and employment issues” isn’t as powerful as “you are right- if women would just submit to you all your problems would be fixed”.
They need a fix. It’s like the Covid issue- the scientists saying “we don’t know” were drowned out by the nutters saying “it’s caused by 5G”. A solution, an answer, no matter how absurd, is more appealing.
Hiding it is not the answer. It never is. Education and discussion is always a good thing.
I suspect a key component is allies. White, masculine, allies. They’ve got a shit-ton of privilege and this is an excellent use for it. (Dudes! Use it! Don’t waste it feeling all guilty and apologetic FFS - use it!!)
I think that a white dude making a critical documentary was probably excellent. Can we follow it up with more white dudes shining lights and educating folks? Especially dudes with cultural cachet?
“But how do you make someone feel seen when your competition is validating every horrible thought they’ve had?” THIIIS! This I think is the heart of why the left is having such a hard time reaching these men when compared to the right. How on earth can you compete with “you are right, you are the victim, nothing is your fault, come just as you are.”
I come back time and again to that article you wrote that brought me into your writings: they don’t like you. These men. They don’t like women.
You can’t compete with that.
MTG has started talking some sense, yeah? But I don’t like her. She can’t teach me something new. She can confirm what I already know from other trusted sources, but she can’t reach me. So if she needs to reach me… she needs to find someone like you to tell me what she’s trying to get across (or any other reasonable decent human being, but to illustrate my point, say it’s you). And I have to not perceive you as platforming her. Because I ditch people who platform known horrible people (Andrew Huberman platformed Jordan Peterson. Only after that did I understand how horrible Huberman is)
So we need allies… who aren’t visibly aligned with us. They probably don’t even know they are aligned with us. Well damn, no wonder this is hard.
Actually, that’s it, isn’t it? We can’t reach the dudes in the manosphere. But we can reach the guys who are like “the whatosphere?” And maybe they don’t really believe it but then they hang out with a buddy who is in deep. And instead of being sucked in he recognizes it as the stuff that feminist nutter was talking about - buddy can’t be serious. Oh but buddy is serious. And maybe he hauls his buddy out.
Thought refinement incoming: we can’t reach the men who don’t like us. But we can reach the men who do. And they can reach the men who don’t like us (but think they do). And those men can reach the manosphere men.
I also don't totally believe most of the men who "don't like us" don't actually like us. My guess is they mainly don't like feeling rejected by us. In other words, if they were to feel accepted, liked, valued, that would start a different experience dissonant with what they've been having. But again, their attitude is self-reinforcing by continuing to be so egregious in their behavior, so offensive in their stance, 'cause, that's a recipe guaranteed to not be taken very well.
I think it isn’t about us really- in culture they have to reject EVERYTHING within themselves that is feminine to become a REAL man- not realizing that shutting off half of their HUMAN instincts makes them less humane. This is useful and done purposefully in the military services - let go of Mommy to become allegiant of your unit and commanding officer.
Hoo boy. Okay, so here's what I think. A lot of the manosphere nonsense is an ugly version of the "make money online" culture. Andrew Tate's whole schtick was selling memberships where he teaches boys and men to make money online because if you're broke, you don't get chicks.
Now there's spinoffs. Like the dude they showcased in the Independent piece. Harrison Sullivan, who says "I coach boys how to be f***ing boys,” lol He says goes on to say "How to make money. How to be outside the system. How to not have a boss telling you what to do. I teach guys how to be proper guys, not these soy boy gimps”
As for Adam White saying the documentary may have done the opposite of what it intended - I dunno. That requires a pretty big grain of salt to believe, because I think what the documentary was meant to do is make money and it probably did. Netflix doesn't run anything for the social good. They are a corporation seeking to run what pays.
Me, I think boys need better role models because they sure don't listen to women. But that's a big ask because the economy is sh*t and boys ARE broke, just like all of us, women included so the scenario is ripe for lotharios like Tate and every mini-me like Harrison.
I don't know the solution. It might be that young men who fall for manosphere rhetoric don't get to pass on their genes. But that's a real long wait.
To add to my above (because whew) I read a study of boys and men who got into the manosphere and got back out again. In most of the cases, it was another guy who changed his mind. A brother, a cousin, a friend. Someone who said dude, all that stuff is wrong. I have a girlfriend and I'm not rich and buffed. I'll see if I can find it and link it :)
Yes! Ok, that’s what I just arrived at in my comment- we need the guys! White dudes who say the manosphere doesn’t deliver. Dudes who are quite enviable.
I mean, wouldn't the answer be to push counter narratives for boys to follow? Could we do more to showcase how awesome and empowering it is for husband's to stay at home and raise children? Or how about incentives for more men to work in early childhood education? Seeing positive role models early is important. What we need is actions that provide a future to our children, but there's no reason to hope when those in charge will sell humanities future for their own profit. Why would you do anything but hustle and dominate and get yours? Seems like the problem with the manosphere is that it appears to offer more paths to success than "normie" life.
“Seems like the problem with the manosphere is that it appears to offer more paths to success than "normie" life.” Bingo. As for counter narratives - it’s super hard to compete with “you are the victim and nothing is your fault.” I think men like Richard Reeves and Scott Galloway are trying very hard to provide a counter narrative, though their messages are better - it’s still on the problematic scale. But I understand why they go so easy on men and boys - they will never have a hope of capturing boys attention if they don’t.
I think it depends on our personal role in creating what is next. Is our role to be strategic - or help others be strategic about the way the information in these kinds of docs or revelations is used? I used to work for a major NGO and the idea was how can we use our influence, what leverage do we have to change policy or culture? What is achievable?
Or is it to build something else? And if so, what?
There's a weird thing where so much art (books + movies) that attempts to expose/mock/reveal the hidden underbelly of the manosphere ends up being embraced by it. American Pyscho was a slamming critique of the culture and it ended up being embraced as a model. The movie Wall Street was embraced by the criminals it attempted to expose.
(I would list Fight Club as well, but I think the text of the film itself celebrates the thing it purports to critique. It's not just a thing that happened later.)
And other art that attempts to expose/mock/reveal the hidden underbelly of some other part of society doesn't seem to have this problem that I can think of. There's a lot of art about how awful and destructive American suburban life is and it doesn't make people fetishize being a suburban dad.
It seems to be unique to masculinity. Show how bad it is on film, and a certain kind of guy thinks it's a how-to.
Celeste, you say "all of these men have traumatic pasts - none of them had fathers that were there." I'm SURE that's a part of it, and for many, the fathers that were there were no shining stars. But how true is that for the rest of us? My father wasn't there. Much of humanity's fathers also weren't around. But we don't all become misogynistic monsters.
Last year I ran a little course I called The Conscious Masculine. I think I was hoping to find the key to helping men find their way back to their own humanity (although I don't mean to imply this has become universal among men. I am talking about those who fell for the red pill, or the incels living in mom's basement. Or the Steve Bannon's who seem to carry rage at their ex.) In the course we looked at everything from modern culture to early biblical history, including the then mainstream rejection of the hidden Gnostic Gospels. How patriarchy insisted itself through Christianity. How we've been molded by the various personalities, temperaments, and souls of our father figures in all their different forms. What messages they carried and taught us all as to a man's place in the world. And how when women started to rise up in the 60's and 70's, to create a better life for themselves, men just didn't. They didn't do anything. They didn't ask questions. They didn't get curious. They just got defensive and angry, because their entitlements were now being questioned. Their power not so effective.
We also focused quite a bit on fathers. What we learned from our fathers, albeit from their absence as much as their presence. What it taught us to expect from men as we reached adulthood. How men find their esteem. And then, in one poignant moment the real question became so clear: do fathers matter? We sat in silence with that for some long minutes. One young father, who was struggling with not working, and likely his own value, knew the answer for him, meaning he knew how much his father meant to him. But he totally questioned whether HE matters to his two precious young children. We all teared up when he could finally recognize holy shit he most certainly does. I think some of us were seriously questioning how much our respective fathers mattered to us. But in that moment, the defenses fell. The anger fell. The recognition became clear like the figure of the genie manifesting before our eyes who'd just been released from the bottle. You're damned straight they do, and if men (fathers) could only realize just how important they are to all their daughters and sons, we could maybe get over ourselves and start to feel love, loved, worthy. Like we count.
Being a therapist, I curdle just a bit when I let myself get caught in rage toward the Bannon's and Russ Vought's and Doug Wilson's and the others- who've now published a What to Do With Women Manifesto part of Project 2025. I mean, they might as well just lock us all up in a cage and every night come pick one or two who look like a good lay for an hour. (sorry, that's crude.) Still, I struggle to find a more spiritual stance of holding compassion, looking for healing. But in therapy as in addictions as in all kinds of other things, there ain't no healing for somebody who doesn't believe they need to be healed. So, then I feel I've been a bit arrogant or smug, holding a space of superiority over those who are locked in said manosphere. My internship was in working in corrections, which in that halfway house was about 80% men. I'd say 90% anti-social personality disorder. I wrote my thesis on the idea that bringing in some compassion could really make a difference in these wounded mens' souls - they needed to be seen, and accepted for who they are. It took very little time after I submitted that thesis for me to feel I'd been had. One minute they want to be real, to be seen, to connect, because I'm still sure they are starving for those things. The next, they've found a way to play you, because being real is just too dangerously close to feeling bad feelings, so they chase them away by manipulating the very people who show them kindness. And so the cycle continues.
I think it's really important to manage our outrage in certain contexts when interacting with this worldview. Rage can easily become addictive and fuel self-righteousness instead of introspection and compassion. I say this because I get so outraged and there is a place and time for that certainly. But when we want to change people's minds we need more tools at our disposal than just fury.
Amy McPhie Allebest does a great job @breakingdownpatriarchy.com and recently did a great video showing how to argue better, in the spirit of true discourse and dialogue. Fruitful conversation avoids making personal attacks on your debate partner's character. When engaging in the Manosphere self-righteous rage can easily turn into personal attacks and now we have become a part of the problem.
Are we engaging with the Manosphere so we can feel righteous, superior, and justified in our rage? Or are we trying to understand and change hearts and minds? Our intentions change the tone of the interaction, and therefore potentially the outcome.
Who are we engaging with and why? Is it because we really think we can change that person's mind? Personal relationship and trust changes minds, not a random online stranger yelling at you. So I think we need to be honest about who we are engaging with and why. Work smart not hard. Not everyone is your audience, and we don't have to give our attention and time to every guy online with an opinion.
I find the following men to have useful ideas and opinions about men in society and male well-being: Terrence Real, Scott Galloway, Richard Reeves, and to a lesser extent David Brooks. I don't agree 💯 with every view these guys hold, but I respect their sincerity and mental acuity.
Last thing, while listening to Richard Reeves's book about men, on the chapter about testosterone and the risky behavior it encourages, and how the male experience of the world is shaped by this pressure both biological and social to reproduce, and how their biological role does little to give them a legitimate place and role in society, and that it has to be largely manufactured... and if they find themselves on the outside w/o spouse, child, or traditional high earning job they can feel a deeply isolated and useless. As a middle-aged (i.e. in my prime) cis-woman in a heterosexual relationship w/o children or a traditional job/career I felt a profound and overwhelming sense of kinship and familiarity with that kind of man and his experience of the world. And I'm a raging feminist and an eloquent defender of the sisterhood and women's rights. In many real ways I have more in common with a "Manosphere bro" than I do with a married or divorced woman with three kids, a full-time job, juggling five calendars and emotionally regulating an entire household. Life is funny. And rarely black and white.
So though the differences between men and women both biological and socially are very real and distinct, on a person-to-person basis we may be surprised to discover weird overlap in our human experience. The male experience isn't a monolith and neither is the female, and it's always good to remember that. It keeps our interactions humble, and human instead of antagonistic and dogmatic.
Also, we shouldn't be afraid of attention shining on what we don't like or disapprove of. If the Manosphere is as false and unjustified as we think it is sunlight can only cleanse and transform it. We choose to be on the side of Right and Truth not because Right and Truth are weak and need our paternalistic protection and help, but because we need Right and Truth to strengthen us.
Great points here! Fun fact: I used to write Amy’s YouTube scripts so yeah, big fan of her 😊 I’ve often thought about how unfortunate it is that the things that go viral -rage, black and white thinking-are exactly the opposite of what goes into actually changing someone’s mind -listening without judgement. (And I’m saying that as someone who has gone viral for being mad on the internet)
I think men need to have a space where they get together and talk with other men and if they are serious, ask themselves how are they contributing to improving life for everyone in their communities? That said, I have yet to hear of any discourse coming out of the manosphere that would help to improve life on the planet for everyone. Left on their own men pretty much just focus on themselves. If they are unhappy about their lives, they rarely look at other men or themselves as the source of the problem, they blame women. Men have been using Shame and Blame (twin pillars of the Patriarchy) to exert control over women for way too long. Unfortunately, they will keep doing that as long as women continue to play that game with them.
I appreciate so much this chance to discuss this issue and I'm learning from the comments. This may be a silly observation, but I think calling it the "manosphere" gives it too much gravitas. The right is so much better at naming things. I prefer to think of them as the "dude-iverse." This is a bunch of dudes who create their own little fantasy world of violence and abuse, so they don't have to do the hard work of interacting/negotiating in a democratic world. They get to feel "manly" in the dominant/violent/superior sense. We need to separate this subgroup from grown-up men and force the grown-ups to denounce the "dude-iverse" as weak and cowardly.
I’m completely split in two by this question. All the attention the media threw at Trump, appropriately mostly negative, seems to have played an enormous role in getting this guy elected (twice). I didn’t really learn about this weird male culture, until I read about it after November 2024 (as part of the diagnosis of Trump’s win). I was COMPLETELY shocked that he won ANY young person demographic. But, how can we fix a thing without talking about it? But, for the love of all that is decent, can we find a way of having that conversation without somehow making it more popular?
Ignoring unnecessary fight-picking isn't bowing. A blond Holly is giving great advice in my feed today. Being assertive is not masculine. Being nurturing is not feminine. Science asserts new fathers lose a percentage of testosterone and do they notice? Those are both qualities of humans. Both sexes need both.
I think it is important to unpack what drives the manosphere, thoroughly examine it, and talk about what we find - openly, honestly, and publicly. We can do this without rage. My own take is that we can already name some aspects of the root cause - patriarchy, privilege (dominated by white privilege) and entitlement which then emerges as misogyny and violence towards women. But where does this come from? I think it is fundamentally that the world is created by men for men and centered around the freedom of men (primarily white men). Men occupy the same spaces as women but they live in an entirely different world. I stumbled upon this when comparing notes about traveling with a white male friend. He moves through the world completely free - wearing whatever he wants, driving late nights, making friends at 2 am in the gas stations. I don't. I drive nervously at night, throw on a jacket even if it's hot at night, zip in and out very fast at the 2 am gas stations and skip every gas station that isn't well lit with people. There is a fundamental difference between how I engage the world and how he does. He is free and I am constrained. This is true in every situation - business interactions, getting a part to repair a car, even just sending an email to a customer. Men don't understand that this special world of theirs exists because they live in it and when we try to point it out to them they get angry and defensive. I think the 4B movement was a way to reclaim some of our freedom and I also think this is why the manobros got really upset and said things like "your body my choice." I think until we can understand this fundamental difference, articulate it, and help our male friends see it, all of the "fixes" are just bandaids. I did explain this to my male friend and it moved the needle a bit - he recognized areas where he objectifies women and how this is unfair to the woman he is objectifying and is making a conscious effort to stop - not perfect but progress.
Yes! So well said Rebecca!
One point I want to add (my post was already long) is that the next step is for us to define what freedom would really look like for women (and all persons who are not afforded the freedom created by primarily white men). What does that really look like? Once defined how do we go about creating a world that looks like this? Most manobros are not going to want others to have true freedom - that's fine - they are free to have their own ideas as long as their freedom does not impinge upon mine. They don't have a right to my body and should they assault me the penalty should be swift and severe. I also have the right not to engage them - like the 4B movement and they are free to be upset about it - I simply don't care. But there are men unaware of the world they inhabit and who, once aware, are able to reframe and these are the men we engage with to help us build the world where freedom isn't just for a select few. Yes, this is very idealistic, but why not? We create the societies we live in why can't we create this one?
Not talking about sexual assaults did not help. Look at all the court cases, books and so forth it took to make men aware there are negative consequences to their actions. If only there were a way to identify and shame those men in the manosphere. Whatever light can be shown on this ugly secretive misogyny can only help develop consequences.
The court case against META and YouTube reported on today is encouraging. The successful Plaintive's case was that corporations were liable for the emotional damages done to a vulnerable teenage girl due to the addictive nature of the content carried by their services.
It would be interesting to know if a case for damages could be built linking the content on the manosphere and the internet providers that carry that content.
I would love to hear an attorney's opinion about this.
This discussion came up on a reddit thread for psychotherapists, by a woman who wanted insight on what "works" for men who are really indoctrinated with the red pill. One poster challenged her that she seemed to want to change him (the theoretical young male client). If it were me, I'd have said, guilty as charged. Yet, many therapists, both men and women, have found that our skills do reach men who come to therapy, (if they stay long enough), who eventually start seeing the cracks in their views. Some find that many women are not so awful as broadcast by their brothers. But it's a problem I've been watching and trying to understand - and have some healing role in - for years. There's a wound in there. But there are people, let's say a Steve Bannon kinda guy, maybe, who have no desire to change a thing, except to show more rage, extract yet more revenge. And, then what? Following, bc this issue is near and dear to my heart.
I've just been reading the mythology of Eris, and the revenge coming from the woman scorned. But her deeper message is to expose social injustice and there's a better way to do that than getting stuck in rage. But maybe the rage is needed, at least as a starting point.
“There's a wound in there.” Yeah that’s the part of the documentary I found most interesting - all of these men have traumatic pasts - none of them had fathers that were there.
I watched with my husband and within 30 minutes he was like, "where are the fathers?"
I have to admit, I wasn’t familiar with this movement until recently.
What interests me is less the movement itself… and more what makes it resonate.
These things rarely grow without a reason.
Ignoring them doesn’t seem to work.
But reacting only with outrage doesn’t seem to dissolve them either.
Perhaps the real question is not only what we do with it…
but what conditions made it feel necessary in the first place.
“Ignoring them doesn’t seem to work. But reacting only with outrage doesn’t seem to dissolve them either.”
I agree and in this vein I actually think Theroux’s documentary is a pretty good course of action because he doesn’t go in and yell and scream at these guys - (that’s just what the internet does all the time and it doesn’t seem to help) Instead, he asks questions and displays their idiocy all on their own.
I doubt the documentary will do much to change the men on camera’s point of view but I do think it’s helpful that we are more educated about what’s out there.
Yes — sometimes the right question reveals more than reacting ever could.
You framed the questions very coherently, Celeste
I was an employment for 28 years and it’s clear that corporate culture is larger than anyone individual, including the CEO.
So when somebody comes into a company culture, that culture will drive their behavior far more than most people realize.
When you create a healthy culture, the bad actors get flushed out very quickly.
I wonder how that might apply to the culture of a nation.
I don’t need to see a documentary about it. I wonder what it would be like if we all had a lot less tolerance for manosphere behaviors that have been allowed to thrive in the underworld and are now spilling out into the mainstream.
Everyone wants to be Seen. And seeing things as they are is the first step in any problem solving.
Is there some way to merge these two “seen”s?
Is there a way to see the Manosphere and see the vulnerable people it is trapping at the same time? (I haven’t watched it - maybe the documentary does that.)
But how do you make someone feel seen when your competition is validating every horrible thought they’ve had? “I see your housing and employment issues” isn’t as powerful as “you are right- if women would just submit to you all your problems would be fixed”.
They need a fix. It’s like the Covid issue- the scientists saying “we don’t know” were drowned out by the nutters saying “it’s caused by 5G”. A solution, an answer, no matter how absurd, is more appealing.
Hiding it is not the answer. It never is. Education and discussion is always a good thing.
I suspect a key component is allies. White, masculine, allies. They’ve got a shit-ton of privilege and this is an excellent use for it. (Dudes! Use it! Don’t waste it feeling all guilty and apologetic FFS - use it!!)
I think that a white dude making a critical documentary was probably excellent. Can we follow it up with more white dudes shining lights and educating folks? Especially dudes with cultural cachet?
“But how do you make someone feel seen when your competition is validating every horrible thought they’ve had?” THIIIS! This I think is the heart of why the left is having such a hard time reaching these men when compared to the right. How on earth can you compete with “you are right, you are the victim, nothing is your fault, come just as you are.”
I come back time and again to that article you wrote that brought me into your writings: they don’t like you. These men. They don’t like women.
You can’t compete with that.
MTG has started talking some sense, yeah? But I don’t like her. She can’t teach me something new. She can confirm what I already know from other trusted sources, but she can’t reach me. So if she needs to reach me… she needs to find someone like you to tell me what she’s trying to get across (or any other reasonable decent human being, but to illustrate my point, say it’s you). And I have to not perceive you as platforming her. Because I ditch people who platform known horrible people (Andrew Huberman platformed Jordan Peterson. Only after that did I understand how horrible Huberman is)
So we need allies… who aren’t visibly aligned with us. They probably don’t even know they are aligned with us. Well damn, no wonder this is hard.
Actually, that’s it, isn’t it? We can’t reach the dudes in the manosphere. But we can reach the guys who are like “the whatosphere?” And maybe they don’t really believe it but then they hang out with a buddy who is in deep. And instead of being sucked in he recognizes it as the stuff that feminist nutter was talking about - buddy can’t be serious. Oh but buddy is serious. And maybe he hauls his buddy out.
Thought refinement incoming: we can’t reach the men who don’t like us. But we can reach the men who do. And they can reach the men who don’t like us (but think they do). And those men can reach the manosphere men.
I also don't totally believe most of the men who "don't like us" don't actually like us. My guess is they mainly don't like feeling rejected by us. In other words, if they were to feel accepted, liked, valued, that would start a different experience dissonant with what they've been having. But again, their attitude is self-reinforcing by continuing to be so egregious in their behavior, so offensive in their stance, 'cause, that's a recipe guaranteed to not be taken very well.
I think it isn’t about us really- in culture they have to reject EVERYTHING within themselves that is feminine to become a REAL man- not realizing that shutting off half of their HUMAN instincts makes them less humane. This is useful and done purposefully in the military services - let go of Mommy to become allegiant of your unit and commanding officer.
Hoo boy. Okay, so here's what I think. A lot of the manosphere nonsense is an ugly version of the "make money online" culture. Andrew Tate's whole schtick was selling memberships where he teaches boys and men to make money online because if you're broke, you don't get chicks.
Now there's spinoffs. Like the dude they showcased in the Independent piece. Harrison Sullivan, who says "I coach boys how to be f***ing boys,” lol He says goes on to say "How to make money. How to be outside the system. How to not have a boss telling you what to do. I teach guys how to be proper guys, not these soy boy gimps”
As for Adam White saying the documentary may have done the opposite of what it intended - I dunno. That requires a pretty big grain of salt to believe, because I think what the documentary was meant to do is make money and it probably did. Netflix doesn't run anything for the social good. They are a corporation seeking to run what pays.
Me, I think boys need better role models because they sure don't listen to women. But that's a big ask because the economy is sh*t and boys ARE broke, just like all of us, women included so the scenario is ripe for lotharios like Tate and every mini-me like Harrison.
I don't know the solution. It might be that young men who fall for manosphere rhetoric don't get to pass on their genes. But that's a real long wait.
“Netflix doesn't run anything for the social good.” SO true!
To add to my above (because whew) I read a study of boys and men who got into the manosphere and got back out again. In most of the cases, it was another guy who changed his mind. A brother, a cousin, a friend. Someone who said dude, all that stuff is wrong. I have a girlfriend and I'm not rich and buffed. I'll see if I can find it and link it :)
Yes! Ok, that’s what I just arrived at in my comment- we need the guys! White dudes who say the manosphere doesn’t deliver. Dudes who are quite enviable.
I mean, wouldn't the answer be to push counter narratives for boys to follow? Could we do more to showcase how awesome and empowering it is for husband's to stay at home and raise children? Or how about incentives for more men to work in early childhood education? Seeing positive role models early is important. What we need is actions that provide a future to our children, but there's no reason to hope when those in charge will sell humanities future for their own profit. Why would you do anything but hustle and dominate and get yours? Seems like the problem with the manosphere is that it appears to offer more paths to success than "normie" life.
“Seems like the problem with the manosphere is that it appears to offer more paths to success than "normie" life.” Bingo. As for counter narratives - it’s super hard to compete with “you are the victim and nothing is your fault.” I think men like Richard Reeves and Scott Galloway are trying very hard to provide a counter narrative, though their messages are better - it’s still on the problematic scale. But I understand why they go so easy on men and boys - they will never have a hope of capturing boys attention if they don’t.
I think it depends on our personal role in creating what is next. Is our role to be strategic - or help others be strategic about the way the information in these kinds of docs or revelations is used? I used to work for a major NGO and the idea was how can we use our influence, what leverage do we have to change policy or culture? What is achievable?
Or is it to build something else? And if so, what?
There's a weird thing where so much art (books + movies) that attempts to expose/mock/reveal the hidden underbelly of the manosphere ends up being embraced by it. American Pyscho was a slamming critique of the culture and it ended up being embraced as a model. The movie Wall Street was embraced by the criminals it attempted to expose.
(I would list Fight Club as well, but I think the text of the film itself celebrates the thing it purports to critique. It's not just a thing that happened later.)
And other art that attempts to expose/mock/reveal the hidden underbelly of some other part of society doesn't seem to have this problem that I can think of. There's a lot of art about how awful and destructive American suburban life is and it doesn't make people fetishize being a suburban dad.
It seems to be unique to masculinity. Show how bad it is on film, and a certain kind of guy thinks it's a how-to.
I don't know how to address that.
So true! See also: The Godfather- one of the most celebrated films of all time.
Celeste, you say "all of these men have traumatic pasts - none of them had fathers that were there." I'm SURE that's a part of it, and for many, the fathers that were there were no shining stars. But how true is that for the rest of us? My father wasn't there. Much of humanity's fathers also weren't around. But we don't all become misogynistic monsters.
Last year I ran a little course I called The Conscious Masculine. I think I was hoping to find the key to helping men find their way back to their own humanity (although I don't mean to imply this has become universal among men. I am talking about those who fell for the red pill, or the incels living in mom's basement. Or the Steve Bannon's who seem to carry rage at their ex.) In the course we looked at everything from modern culture to early biblical history, including the then mainstream rejection of the hidden Gnostic Gospels. How patriarchy insisted itself through Christianity. How we've been molded by the various personalities, temperaments, and souls of our father figures in all their different forms. What messages they carried and taught us all as to a man's place in the world. And how when women started to rise up in the 60's and 70's, to create a better life for themselves, men just didn't. They didn't do anything. They didn't ask questions. They didn't get curious. They just got defensive and angry, because their entitlements were now being questioned. Their power not so effective.
We also focused quite a bit on fathers. What we learned from our fathers, albeit from their absence as much as their presence. What it taught us to expect from men as we reached adulthood. How men find their esteem. And then, in one poignant moment the real question became so clear: do fathers matter? We sat in silence with that for some long minutes. One young father, who was struggling with not working, and likely his own value, knew the answer for him, meaning he knew how much his father meant to him. But he totally questioned whether HE matters to his two precious young children. We all teared up when he could finally recognize holy shit he most certainly does. I think some of us were seriously questioning how much our respective fathers mattered to us. But in that moment, the defenses fell. The anger fell. The recognition became clear like the figure of the genie manifesting before our eyes who'd just been released from the bottle. You're damned straight they do, and if men (fathers) could only realize just how important they are to all their daughters and sons, we could maybe get over ourselves and start to feel love, loved, worthy. Like we count.
Being a therapist, I curdle just a bit when I let myself get caught in rage toward the Bannon's and Russ Vought's and Doug Wilson's and the others- who've now published a What to Do With Women Manifesto part of Project 2025. I mean, they might as well just lock us all up in a cage and every night come pick one or two who look like a good lay for an hour. (sorry, that's crude.) Still, I struggle to find a more spiritual stance of holding compassion, looking for healing. But in therapy as in addictions as in all kinds of other things, there ain't no healing for somebody who doesn't believe they need to be healed. So, then I feel I've been a bit arrogant or smug, holding a space of superiority over those who are locked in said manosphere. My internship was in working in corrections, which in that halfway house was about 80% men. I'd say 90% anti-social personality disorder. I wrote my thesis on the idea that bringing in some compassion could really make a difference in these wounded mens' souls - they needed to be seen, and accepted for who they are. It took very little time after I submitted that thesis for me to feel I'd been had. One minute they want to be real, to be seen, to connect, because I'm still sure they are starving for those things. The next, they've found a way to play you, because being real is just too dangerously close to feeling bad feelings, so they chase them away by manipulating the very people who show them kindness. And so the cycle continues.
I think it's really important to manage our outrage in certain contexts when interacting with this worldview. Rage can easily become addictive and fuel self-righteousness instead of introspection and compassion. I say this because I get so outraged and there is a place and time for that certainly. But when we want to change people's minds we need more tools at our disposal than just fury.
Amy McPhie Allebest does a great job @breakingdownpatriarchy.com and recently did a great video showing how to argue better, in the spirit of true discourse and dialogue. Fruitful conversation avoids making personal attacks on your debate partner's character. When engaging in the Manosphere self-righteous rage can easily turn into personal attacks and now we have become a part of the problem.
Are we engaging with the Manosphere so we can feel righteous, superior, and justified in our rage? Or are we trying to understand and change hearts and minds? Our intentions change the tone of the interaction, and therefore potentially the outcome.
Who are we engaging with and why? Is it because we really think we can change that person's mind? Personal relationship and trust changes minds, not a random online stranger yelling at you. So I think we need to be honest about who we are engaging with and why. Work smart not hard. Not everyone is your audience, and we don't have to give our attention and time to every guy online with an opinion.
I find the following men to have useful ideas and opinions about men in society and male well-being: Terrence Real, Scott Galloway, Richard Reeves, and to a lesser extent David Brooks. I don't agree 💯 with every view these guys hold, but I respect their sincerity and mental acuity.
Last thing, while listening to Richard Reeves's book about men, on the chapter about testosterone and the risky behavior it encourages, and how the male experience of the world is shaped by this pressure both biological and social to reproduce, and how their biological role does little to give them a legitimate place and role in society, and that it has to be largely manufactured... and if they find themselves on the outside w/o spouse, child, or traditional high earning job they can feel a deeply isolated and useless. As a middle-aged (i.e. in my prime) cis-woman in a heterosexual relationship w/o children or a traditional job/career I felt a profound and overwhelming sense of kinship and familiarity with that kind of man and his experience of the world. And I'm a raging feminist and an eloquent defender of the sisterhood and women's rights. In many real ways I have more in common with a "Manosphere bro" than I do with a married or divorced woman with three kids, a full-time job, juggling five calendars and emotionally regulating an entire household. Life is funny. And rarely black and white.
So though the differences between men and women both biological and socially are very real and distinct, on a person-to-person basis we may be surprised to discover weird overlap in our human experience. The male experience isn't a monolith and neither is the female, and it's always good to remember that. It keeps our interactions humble, and human instead of antagonistic and dogmatic.
Also, we shouldn't be afraid of attention shining on what we don't like or disapprove of. If the Manosphere is as false and unjustified as we think it is sunlight can only cleanse and transform it. We choose to be on the side of Right and Truth not because Right and Truth are weak and need our paternalistic protection and help, but because we need Right and Truth to strengthen us.
Great points here! Fun fact: I used to write Amy’s YouTube scripts so yeah, big fan of her 😊 I’ve often thought about how unfortunate it is that the things that go viral -rage, black and white thinking-are exactly the opposite of what goes into actually changing someone’s mind -listening without judgement. (And I’m saying that as someone who has gone viral for being mad on the internet)
I think men need to have a space where they get together and talk with other men and if they are serious, ask themselves how are they contributing to improving life for everyone in their communities? That said, I have yet to hear of any discourse coming out of the manosphere that would help to improve life on the planet for everyone. Left on their own men pretty much just focus on themselves. If they are unhappy about their lives, they rarely look at other men or themselves as the source of the problem, they blame women. Men have been using Shame and Blame (twin pillars of the Patriarchy) to exert control over women for way too long. Unfortunately, they will keep doing that as long as women continue to play that game with them.
I appreciate so much this chance to discuss this issue and I'm learning from the comments. This may be a silly observation, but I think calling it the "manosphere" gives it too much gravitas. The right is so much better at naming things. I prefer to think of them as the "dude-iverse." This is a bunch of dudes who create their own little fantasy world of violence and abuse, so they don't have to do the hard work of interacting/negotiating in a democratic world. They get to feel "manly" in the dominant/violent/superior sense. We need to separate this subgroup from grown-up men and force the grown-ups to denounce the "dude-iverse" as weak and cowardly.
I’m completely split in two by this question. All the attention the media threw at Trump, appropriately mostly negative, seems to have played an enormous role in getting this guy elected (twice). I didn’t really learn about this weird male culture, until I read about it after November 2024 (as part of the diagnosis of Trump’s win). I was COMPLETELY shocked that he won ANY young person demographic. But, how can we fix a thing without talking about it? But, for the love of all that is decent, can we find a way of having that conversation without somehow making it more popular?
Ignoring unnecessary fight-picking isn't bowing. A blond Holly is giving great advice in my feed today. Being assertive is not masculine. Being nurturing is not feminine. Science asserts new fathers lose a percentage of testosterone and do they notice? Those are both qualities of humans. Both sexes need both.