Celeste. For the past year this topic has been on my mind as it has been a topic I’ve been personally navigating. Without getting too personal here, I have to admit that me. Myself. I. The woman. Had internalized purity and fraternity culture as a woman and it impacted me so much that I saw other women as sexual objects first and humans second 😭. I have judged them by what they are wearing, for being friends with men (thinking they had ulterior motives), being friends with my husband and seeing them as a threat. The horrible beliefs of purity and fraternity culture can be deep and so very harmful. I’ve been married 23 years and I’m just now seeing how these beliefs have been an obstacle for me in my own life and marriage. Thank you for giving so much of your time to this topic. You’re helping me so much!!!
I read somewhere this week that in a patriarchal system, “the women are their men.” That stuck with me and I’ve been thinking about how this has been true in my life
Jamee I grew up this way too and I suuuper get what you're so bravely sharing here. And, yeah, I agree it is common for women to think this way as we are social animals who all absorb our cultural conditioning to feel safe too!
AND I'd like to add that in my lived experience, it is NOT at all common or easy for women--esp if we developed our sense of self within purity culture!--to get really honest with ourselves and others about our own internalized misogyny. And that self-awareness is extremely important, maybe the most important step toward change. Because we cannot show men how to love and respect us as whole people if we haven't first learned how to love and respect our whole Selves. KUDOS to you for making these connections; you are clearly very strong.
You are extremely kind and I appreciate your thoughts very much. 😭❤️ I don’t even know how to respond except THANK YOU for acknowledging me and seeing me.
I couldn't have been more than 9 years old when, at a birthday pool party, the birthday girl's older sister, next to go down the slide into the pool, told me to "not look", while I stood on the bottom rungs waiting my turn. Not knowing what she meant, I closed my eyes only to open them again to see this girl turn her swimsuit bottom into a thong before going down the slide. This girl shamed me for not knowing I was going to get a good look at her behind, if I didn't keep my eyes closed. Recalling it even now makes me feel like I was the peeping Tom this girl was making me out to be. So unfair.
We completely create this purity and fraternity culture at church and in the States and my first experience with it all came from that pool party 30 years ago. We can't believe Billy Crystal, Rob Reiner, or these guys who try to sell us on this narrative because it just isn't true and only leads to worse problems like rape culture. Saying men AND women aren't responsible for how we see and treat each other regardless of sexual orientation, gender, other factors, and our own individual internal biases is unfair and wrong.
Men and women should be friends. The best people, both men and women, I know (as a cis-gender male) have fought their own battles and internal dialogues/biases to come to know who they are. Relationships fail when we don't. People get hurt. And then it takes reading a great substack to realize what you may or may not have know all along. 1) That there is more work to do in your life to improve your relationships with the opposite sex, or 2) You know who you are and maybe weren't the entire reason your relationship failed.
As always, thank you for sharing your thoughts and gifted writing skills here Celeste. I'm a better man/person because I read your substack.
This has been a great topic of discussion for my wife and I!
I’d love to hear your thoughts about this in the context of a relationship and outside friends.
Like I’d love it if in that YouTube video where he asked if men and women can be friends…. I want him to ask the Husband “can your wife have male friends?” And to the wife “can your husband have female friends?”
I really like your hope and reasons why men and women can be friends! I’d like to see a world where more people acted that way. But….. I also think this idealization starts to break down when discussing specific situations.
I feel like friendship requires some level of intimacy to be a true friendship. How intimate can you be with your opposite sexed friend before it becomes an affair?
Celeste. For the past year this topic has been on my mind as it has been a topic I’ve been personally navigating. Without getting too personal here, I have to admit that me. Myself. I. The woman. Had internalized purity and fraternity culture as a woman and it impacted me so much that I saw other women as sexual objects first and humans second 😭. I have judged them by what they are wearing, for being friends with men (thinking they had ulterior motives), being friends with my husband and seeing them as a threat. The horrible beliefs of purity and fraternity culture can be deep and so very harmful. I’ve been married 23 years and I’m just now seeing how these beliefs have been an obstacle for me in my own life and marriage. Thank you for giving so much of your time to this topic. You’re helping me so much!!!
Oh thanks for this Jamee- I think this is SO common!!! Esp in cultures where purity culture is so strong and so strongly punished. ❤️❤️
I read somewhere this week that in a patriarchal system, “the women are their men.” That stuck with me and I’ve been thinking about how this has been true in my life
Jamee I grew up this way too and I suuuper get what you're so bravely sharing here. And, yeah, I agree it is common for women to think this way as we are social animals who all absorb our cultural conditioning to feel safe too!
AND I'd like to add that in my lived experience, it is NOT at all common or easy for women--esp if we developed our sense of self within purity culture!--to get really honest with ourselves and others about our own internalized misogyny. And that self-awareness is extremely important, maybe the most important step toward change. Because we cannot show men how to love and respect us as whole people if we haven't first learned how to love and respect our whole Selves. KUDOS to you for making these connections; you are clearly very strong.
You are extremely kind and I appreciate your thoughts very much. 😭❤️ I don’t even know how to respond except THANK YOU for acknowledging me and seeing me.
🥹🥰
I couldn't have been more than 9 years old when, at a birthday pool party, the birthday girl's older sister, next to go down the slide into the pool, told me to "not look", while I stood on the bottom rungs waiting my turn. Not knowing what she meant, I closed my eyes only to open them again to see this girl turn her swimsuit bottom into a thong before going down the slide. This girl shamed me for not knowing I was going to get a good look at her behind, if I didn't keep my eyes closed. Recalling it even now makes me feel like I was the peeping Tom this girl was making me out to be. So unfair.
We completely create this purity and fraternity culture at church and in the States and my first experience with it all came from that pool party 30 years ago. We can't believe Billy Crystal, Rob Reiner, or these guys who try to sell us on this narrative because it just isn't true and only leads to worse problems like rape culture. Saying men AND women aren't responsible for how we see and treat each other regardless of sexual orientation, gender, other factors, and our own individual internal biases is unfair and wrong.
Men and women should be friends. The best people, both men and women, I know (as a cis-gender male) have fought their own battles and internal dialogues/biases to come to know who they are. Relationships fail when we don't. People get hurt. And then it takes reading a great substack to realize what you may or may not have know all along. 1) That there is more work to do in your life to improve your relationships with the opposite sex, or 2) You know who you are and maybe weren't the entire reason your relationship failed.
As always, thank you for sharing your thoughts and gifted writing skills here Celeste. I'm a better man/person because I read your substack.
(Elizabeth’s husband here)
This has been a great topic of discussion for my wife and I!
I’d love to hear your thoughts about this in the context of a relationship and outside friends.
Like I’d love it if in that YouTube video where he asked if men and women can be friends…. I want him to ask the Husband “can your wife have male friends?” And to the wife “can your husband have female friends?”
I really like your hope and reasons why men and women can be friends! I’d like to see a world where more people acted that way. But….. I also think this idealization starts to break down when discussing specific situations.
I feel like friendship requires some level of intimacy to be a true friendship. How intimate can you be with your opposite sexed friend before it becomes an affair?