Celeste. For the past year this topic has been on my mind as it has been a topic I’ve been personally navigating. Without getting too personal here, I have to admit that me. Myself. I. The woman. Had internalized purity and fraternity culture as a woman and it impacted me so much that I saw other women as sexual objects first and humans second 😭. I have judged them by what they are wearing, for being friends with men (thinking they had ulterior motives), being friends with my husband and seeing them as a threat. The horrible beliefs of purity and fraternity culture can be deep and so very harmful. I’ve been married 23 years and I’m just now seeing how these beliefs have been an obstacle for me in my own life and marriage. Thank you for giving so much of your time to this topic. You’re helping me so much!!!
I read somewhere this week that in a patriarchal system, “the women are their men.” That stuck with me and I’ve been thinking about how this has been true in my life
Jamee I grew up this way too and I suuuper get what you're so bravely sharing here. And, yeah, I agree it is common for women to think this way as we are social animals who all absorb our cultural conditioning to feel safe too!
AND I'd like to add that in my lived experience, it is NOT at all common or easy for women--esp if we developed our sense of self within purity culture!--to get really honest with ourselves and others about our own internalized misogyny. And that self-awareness is extremely important, maybe the most important step toward change. Because we cannot show men how to love and respect us as whole people if we haven't first learned how to love and respect our whole Selves. KUDOS to you for making these connections; you are clearly very strong.
You are extremely kind and I appreciate your thoughts very much. 😭❤️ I don’t even know how to respond except THANK YOU for acknowledging me and seeing me.
I couldn't have been more than 9 years old when, at a birthday pool party, the birthday girl's older sister, next to go down the slide into the pool, told me to "not look", while I stood on the bottom rungs waiting my turn. Not knowing what she meant, I closed my eyes only to open them again to see this girl turn her swimsuit bottom into a thong before going down the slide. This girl shamed me for not knowing I was going to get a good look at her behind, if I didn't keep my eyes closed. Recalling it even now makes me feel like I was the peeping Tom this girl was making me out to be. So unfair.
We completely create this purity and fraternity culture at church and in the States and my first experience with it all came from that pool party 30 years ago. We can't believe Billy Crystal, Rob Reiner, or these guys who try to sell us on this narrative because it just isn't true and only leads to worse problems like rape culture. Saying men AND women aren't responsible for how we see and treat each other regardless of sexual orientation, gender, other factors, and our own individual internal biases is unfair and wrong.
Men and women should be friends. The best people, both men and women, I know (as a cis-gender male) have fought their own battles and internal dialogues/biases to come to know who they are. Relationships fail when we don't. People get hurt. And then it takes reading a great substack to realize what you may or may not have know all along. 1) That there is more work to do in your life to improve your relationships with the opposite sex, or 2) You know who you are and maybe weren't the entire reason your relationship failed.
As always, thank you for sharing your thoughts and gifted writing skills here Celeste. I'm a better man/person because I read your substack.
I think another issue affecting male-female friendships, is that as men we typically don’t have many friends, we work with other people, whether in paid employment or voluntary. Generally, we don’t often meet with other men just for friendship and when we do, the conversation is typically pretty shallow (sports, logistics or world news). It is not about personal issues – thanks patriarchy for strongly discouraging vulnerability!
So when we are friends with a woman and she is likely to take the conversation in a more personal direction (because women are generally better at being proper friends), that feels “romantic”, because we have no experience of conversations like that with anyone else, apart from a romantic partner
I, and so many female friends, have had to slowly stop believing that men and women can be friends based on how men in our experience have acted time and time again, leading to ruined friendships. Sad to look back and view the optimism and belief that the opposite sex sees your full humanity as naivety of youth. I don't think this is the case for every single man (my father for example was an exception, which gave me a false expectation of how most men would be. He had several female friends from work, church, or interest based clubs - many of which my mom is still friends with after being introduced to by him, even though he died 30 years ago).
I have no doubt that a lot of this has to do with how rigid and traditional the sub-culture the man grew up in is, and/or how open-minded of an individual they are to consider other models of interaction even if they were raised that way. As you write, those cultures treat the sexuality of the other gender as something to be feared, avoided, and even despised as a direct temptation and cause of moral failure. Those traditional values objectify the opposite sex - not sexually per se, though that is part of it for men especially, but in how they can be an instrument of service. For women, it's a meal ticket, status, and safety. For men, it's sexual access yes but also a domestic servant and key to his legacy through children. Viewed that way, the opposite sex is not seen as an individual with full humanity, but a tool. So for young men flooded with hormones steeped in these norms, they by default see women as a sexual object. If they get to know her with this in mind and end up liking her personality too, the goal is romantic (long-term sex partner + other wife benefits). Most men would not care to develop a relationship with women period if they are not attracted sexually as a baseline, it seems (though I don't know if this is conscious).
Based on the way men and women are dividing politically, I believe men are more likely to hold on to these traditional views than women. Though traditional women are also likely to believe that men and women can't be friends, and to view women who can have male friends as threats.
I think another factor is the huge difference in the numbers of men vs women in history books and in positions of power/interest still today. Obviously there are more women represented today than ever, but still a long way to go to make up for women being a supporting character, if that, in a man's story for historical figures. People aspire to be the main characters and find them interesting, so men have more "humanity" historically and men don't identify with women. I imagine there are more male-female friendships in countries with more women in positions of leadership and power - would love to know stats.
I think this issue is more nuanced than you describe here – more romantic, less sexual.
Thinking through the relationships I, as a happily married middle-aged man, have with women, there is a clear difference in my internal experience between my interactions with the ones I am attracted to and the ones I am not attracted to. Given the strength of the internal experience, when interacting with the one (yes on reflection it is just one at the moment– let’s call her Mary) I am attracted to, I’d be surprised if there is no external evidence of this – which is embarrassing
My attraction to Mary is not primarily sexual, it is primarily romantic; it is about wanting to spend more time with her, to be alone with her, to share more of my personal life with her, to want her to do the same. We really click and think in very similar ways. I really welcome her perspective on issues and it seems that she welcomes mine. I suspect that these feelings are somewhat reciprocated, but I am very aware that as a man, I probably massively overestimate a woman’s attraction to me!
Virtually all the other women I am friends with, are OUR (my wife and I) friends, not MY friends. Mary was originally our friend, but life circumstances (completely outside our control – please don’t second guess this, as it relates to serious trauma that affected our family) have led to it only being me that still comes across* her. I do not see her as a sex toy or a walking vagina, I see her as a lovely full human being. However my internal experience when with her, is very uncomfortable. I am ashamed of having pretty strong romantic feelings about a woman other than my wife.
*I said “comes across” Mary, because I now avoid her, due to that discomfort and shame. I think this is wise, because I am sure my feelings for her would only increase, the more time I spent with her. That wouldn’t honour her or my marriage.
I think, due to physical attraction and friendship dynamics (see my other comment), men tend to develop romantic feelings for a woman fairly easily/ frequently, compared to the other way around.
I suspect that many of the men on the YT video you shared, say they can’t be friends with women, because of the strong internal experience of romantic feelings, that they know aren’t reciprocated, and hence it is very uncomfortable. It is not that we can’t control our physical urges. We know from the difficulties we have with break-ups, that romantic attraction cannot just be turned off like a switch, it takes time and absence.
This has been a great topic of discussion for my wife and I!
I’d love to hear your thoughts about this in the context of a relationship and outside friends.
Like I’d love it if in that YouTube video where he asked if men and women can be friends…. I want him to ask the Husband “can your wife have male friends?” And to the wife “can your husband have female friends?”
I really like your hope and reasons why men and women can be friends! I’d like to see a world where more people acted that way. But….. I also think this idealization starts to break down when discussing specific situations.
I feel like friendship requires some level of intimacy to be a true friendship. How intimate can you be with your opposite sexed friend before it becomes an affair?
Celeste. For the past year this topic has been on my mind as it has been a topic I’ve been personally navigating. Without getting too personal here, I have to admit that me. Myself. I. The woman. Had internalized purity and fraternity culture as a woman and it impacted me so much that I saw other women as sexual objects first and humans second 😭. I have judged them by what they are wearing, for being friends with men (thinking they had ulterior motives), being friends with my husband and seeing them as a threat. The horrible beliefs of purity and fraternity culture can be deep and so very harmful. I’ve been married 23 years and I’m just now seeing how these beliefs have been an obstacle for me in my own life and marriage. Thank you for giving so much of your time to this topic. You’re helping me so much!!!
Oh thanks for this Jamee- I think this is SO common!!! Esp in cultures where purity culture is so strong and so strongly punished. ❤️❤️
I read somewhere this week that in a patriarchal system, “the women are their men.” That stuck with me and I’ve been thinking about how this has been true in my life
Jamee I grew up this way too and I suuuper get what you're so bravely sharing here. And, yeah, I agree it is common for women to think this way as we are social animals who all absorb our cultural conditioning to feel safe too!
AND I'd like to add that in my lived experience, it is NOT at all common or easy for women--esp if we developed our sense of self within purity culture!--to get really honest with ourselves and others about our own internalized misogyny. And that self-awareness is extremely important, maybe the most important step toward change. Because we cannot show men how to love and respect us as whole people if we haven't first learned how to love and respect our whole Selves. KUDOS to you for making these connections; you are clearly very strong.
You are extremely kind and I appreciate your thoughts very much. 😭❤️ I don’t even know how to respond except THANK YOU for acknowledging me and seeing me.
🥹🥰
I couldn't have been more than 9 years old when, at a birthday pool party, the birthday girl's older sister, next to go down the slide into the pool, told me to "not look", while I stood on the bottom rungs waiting my turn. Not knowing what she meant, I closed my eyes only to open them again to see this girl turn her swimsuit bottom into a thong before going down the slide. This girl shamed me for not knowing I was going to get a good look at her behind, if I didn't keep my eyes closed. Recalling it even now makes me feel like I was the peeping Tom this girl was making me out to be. So unfair.
We completely create this purity and fraternity culture at church and in the States and my first experience with it all came from that pool party 30 years ago. We can't believe Billy Crystal, Rob Reiner, or these guys who try to sell us on this narrative because it just isn't true and only leads to worse problems like rape culture. Saying men AND women aren't responsible for how we see and treat each other regardless of sexual orientation, gender, other factors, and our own individual internal biases is unfair and wrong.
Men and women should be friends. The best people, both men and women, I know (as a cis-gender male) have fought their own battles and internal dialogues/biases to come to know who they are. Relationships fail when we don't. People get hurt. And then it takes reading a great substack to realize what you may or may not have know all along. 1) That there is more work to do in your life to improve your relationships with the opposite sex, or 2) You know who you are and maybe weren't the entire reason your relationship failed.
As always, thank you for sharing your thoughts and gifted writing skills here Celeste. I'm a better man/person because I read your substack.
I think another issue affecting male-female friendships, is that as men we typically don’t have many friends, we work with other people, whether in paid employment or voluntary. Generally, we don’t often meet with other men just for friendship and when we do, the conversation is typically pretty shallow (sports, logistics or world news). It is not about personal issues – thanks patriarchy for strongly discouraging vulnerability!
So when we are friends with a woman and she is likely to take the conversation in a more personal direction (because women are generally better at being proper friends), that feels “romantic”, because we have no experience of conversations like that with anyone else, apart from a romantic partner
I, and so many female friends, have had to slowly stop believing that men and women can be friends based on how men in our experience have acted time and time again, leading to ruined friendships. Sad to look back and view the optimism and belief that the opposite sex sees your full humanity as naivety of youth. I don't think this is the case for every single man (my father for example was an exception, which gave me a false expectation of how most men would be. He had several female friends from work, church, or interest based clubs - many of which my mom is still friends with after being introduced to by him, even though he died 30 years ago).
I have no doubt that a lot of this has to do with how rigid and traditional the sub-culture the man grew up in is, and/or how open-minded of an individual they are to consider other models of interaction even if they were raised that way. As you write, those cultures treat the sexuality of the other gender as something to be feared, avoided, and even despised as a direct temptation and cause of moral failure. Those traditional values objectify the opposite sex - not sexually per se, though that is part of it for men especially, but in how they can be an instrument of service. For women, it's a meal ticket, status, and safety. For men, it's sexual access yes but also a domestic servant and key to his legacy through children. Viewed that way, the opposite sex is not seen as an individual with full humanity, but a tool. So for young men flooded with hormones steeped in these norms, they by default see women as a sexual object. If they get to know her with this in mind and end up liking her personality too, the goal is romantic (long-term sex partner + other wife benefits). Most men would not care to develop a relationship with women period if they are not attracted sexually as a baseline, it seems (though I don't know if this is conscious).
Based on the way men and women are dividing politically, I believe men are more likely to hold on to these traditional views than women. Though traditional women are also likely to believe that men and women can't be friends, and to view women who can have male friends as threats.
I think another factor is the huge difference in the numbers of men vs women in history books and in positions of power/interest still today. Obviously there are more women represented today than ever, but still a long way to go to make up for women being a supporting character, if that, in a man's story for historical figures. People aspire to be the main characters and find them interesting, so men have more "humanity" historically and men don't identify with women. I imagine there are more male-female friendships in countries with more women in positions of leadership and power - would love to know stats.
Thanks as always for your insightful work!
I think this issue is more nuanced than you describe here – more romantic, less sexual.
Thinking through the relationships I, as a happily married middle-aged man, have with women, there is a clear difference in my internal experience between my interactions with the ones I am attracted to and the ones I am not attracted to. Given the strength of the internal experience, when interacting with the one (yes on reflection it is just one at the moment– let’s call her Mary) I am attracted to, I’d be surprised if there is no external evidence of this – which is embarrassing
My attraction to Mary is not primarily sexual, it is primarily romantic; it is about wanting to spend more time with her, to be alone with her, to share more of my personal life with her, to want her to do the same. We really click and think in very similar ways. I really welcome her perspective on issues and it seems that she welcomes mine. I suspect that these feelings are somewhat reciprocated, but I am very aware that as a man, I probably massively overestimate a woman’s attraction to me!
Virtually all the other women I am friends with, are OUR (my wife and I) friends, not MY friends. Mary was originally our friend, but life circumstances (completely outside our control – please don’t second guess this, as it relates to serious trauma that affected our family) have led to it only being me that still comes across* her. I do not see her as a sex toy or a walking vagina, I see her as a lovely full human being. However my internal experience when with her, is very uncomfortable. I am ashamed of having pretty strong romantic feelings about a woman other than my wife.
*I said “comes across” Mary, because I now avoid her, due to that discomfort and shame. I think this is wise, because I am sure my feelings for her would only increase, the more time I spent with her. That wouldn’t honour her or my marriage.
I think, due to physical attraction and friendship dynamics (see my other comment), men tend to develop romantic feelings for a woman fairly easily/ frequently, compared to the other way around.
I suspect that many of the men on the YT video you shared, say they can’t be friends with women, because of the strong internal experience of romantic feelings, that they know aren’t reciprocated, and hence it is very uncomfortable. It is not that we can’t control our physical urges. We know from the difficulties we have with break-ups, that romantic attraction cannot just be turned off like a switch, it takes time and absence.
This is a very interesting perspective- thanks for sharing it with us John
(Elizabeth’s husband here)
This has been a great topic of discussion for my wife and I!
I’d love to hear your thoughts about this in the context of a relationship and outside friends.
Like I’d love it if in that YouTube video where he asked if men and women can be friends…. I want him to ask the Husband “can your wife have male friends?” And to the wife “can your husband have female friends?”
I really like your hope and reasons why men and women can be friends! I’d like to see a world where more people acted that way. But….. I also think this idealization starts to break down when discussing specific situations.
I feel like friendship requires some level of intimacy to be a true friendship. How intimate can you be with your opposite sexed friend before it becomes an affair?