I love this so much. Of COURSE the system is all about putting off the natural man/ego/self…since birth the men are taught they are basically Gods, and they are handed actual ‘power’ to judge and rule over women here. It makes sense they’d subscribe to making sure they don’t get *too carried away with themselves.
And of course that doesn’t even work for women who were never given the permission in the first place to know and trust their self. We have no natural women in us! Our nature to know was stolen from us! Men have interpreted that feminism and not agreeing with everything they say means we are giving in to the natural woman. When in reality, it’s our natural woman that we are finally trying to grasp, yes, because it’s the power to know for ourselves what we need, the power that the ‘natural’ man stomped out.
And if only men would stop shaming sexual desires…could they ever realize the natural sexual man isn’t anything to hate. For me now, the natural man IS going to be synonymous with patriarchy. That’s what it’s been talking about all along now right ha. 😉 THAT I can get behind!! Their ego state believing they should truly be in charge and as judges…that sadly has come so naturally to many on earth here since time began…let’s be done with that man forever.
Makes so much sense to me, thank you for this!! Looking forward to learning and thinking about it more.
Love your thoughts here Pam- so interesting to think what the "natural woman" would be vs the "natural man." Makes me think of Liz Gilbert's model of degraded masculine (power hungry, hoarding, take what they want) vs degraded feminine (over serving, over-giving, invisible self).
The idea of feminine morality valuing interdependence over independence reminds me so much of the book Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer, specifically this quote: "Each person, human or no, is bound to every other in a reciprocal relationship. Just as all beings have a duty to me, I have a duty to them." Hierarchies have no place here!
Hierarchies always feel contrived and unnecessary to me, and antithetical to the work of Jesus. It seems to me that, God or mortal, he was all about dismantling the hierarchy and promoting connectedness in our shared humanity.
Yes! That's my favorite part of Jesus- that he didn't ASCEND to the throne and power and ruling - he DESCENDED to the lowest level to all those put at the bottom of any hierarchy. So beautiful.
This piece resonates with me. From my perspective, all stages models (including ones that come from women, such as those from Susanne Cook-Greuter and Terri O'Fallon) have to be balanced and integrated alongside the horizontal models and partnership systems mentioned here. Without that integration, it's an ego game. And since the horizontal models and partnership systems don't get *nearly* the same amount of attention as stages models do, there's often a lot of ego inflation in spiritually minded spaces.
Another thought-provoking post, Celeste. I really believe that the concept of God and religion were created by men in order to gain power and control over people, especially women. I wonder how different the world would be if women had created God and religion. Certainly it would be far better place than it is now. And yes, let's get rid of domination systems and nurture and grow partnership systems. Thanks for bringing Carol Gilligan to our awareness. I've got another book to add to my reading list. I'll gladly join you with the spiritual dummy dums!
I enjoyed reading this. As a queer male I despise the patriarchy and wish it gone forever. The deconstruction of long-held beliefs and stifling social molds meant to oppress women should be a high priority among critical thinkers. Kudos to you for your bravery in defying the status quo.
He did some of the early research on maternal infant bonding and later developed a grief theory that is very fluid. It describes the loss associated with deconstruction perfectly. He’s my go-to guy because his work makes so much sense. I have taught his theories a lot. Some of the work is a little bit dated but the main body of his research and its practical applications still apply. It will add more depth to your ideas. Enjoy.
Love💕 THIS! ‘The spiritual work of men is to lose the self, but the spiritual work of women is to build the self.’ So true! 🙏
I love this so much. Of COURSE the system is all about putting off the natural man/ego/self…since birth the men are taught they are basically Gods, and they are handed actual ‘power’ to judge and rule over women here. It makes sense they’d subscribe to making sure they don’t get *too carried away with themselves.
And of course that doesn’t even work for women who were never given the permission in the first place to know and trust their self. We have no natural women in us! Our nature to know was stolen from us! Men have interpreted that feminism and not agreeing with everything they say means we are giving in to the natural woman. When in reality, it’s our natural woman that we are finally trying to grasp, yes, because it’s the power to know for ourselves what we need, the power that the ‘natural’ man stomped out.
And if only men would stop shaming sexual desires…could they ever realize the natural sexual man isn’t anything to hate. For me now, the natural man IS going to be synonymous with patriarchy. That’s what it’s been talking about all along now right ha. 😉 THAT I can get behind!! Their ego state believing they should truly be in charge and as judges…that sadly has come so naturally to many on earth here since time began…let’s be done with that man forever.
Makes so much sense to me, thank you for this!! Looking forward to learning and thinking about it more.
Love your thoughts here Pam- so interesting to think what the "natural woman" would be vs the "natural man." Makes me think of Liz Gilbert's model of degraded masculine (power hungry, hoarding, take what they want) vs degraded feminine (over serving, over-giving, invisible self).
The idea of feminine morality valuing interdependence over independence reminds me so much of the book Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer, specifically this quote: "Each person, human or no, is bound to every other in a reciprocal relationship. Just as all beings have a duty to me, I have a duty to them." Hierarchies have no place here!
Oh wow! I love that! Perfect quote to pull in here thanks Alyssa ❤️
Celeste you are hitting out of the park each and every week! I love reading your posts each Sunday morning.
A book you may be interested in reading “changing of the gods- feminism and the end of traditional religions” by Naomi Goldenberg
Ooooh I'm sold already from the title alone! Thanks Laura!!
Thanks for the rec, I could be into this! Forever looking for more feminine spiritual frames to replace my patriarchal Mormon upbringing.
Hierarchies always feel contrived and unnecessary to me, and antithetical to the work of Jesus. It seems to me that, God or mortal, he was all about dismantling the hierarchy and promoting connectedness in our shared humanity.
Yes! That's my favorite part of Jesus- that he didn't ASCEND to the throne and power and ruling - he DESCENDED to the lowest level to all those put at the bottom of any hierarchy. So beautiful.
This piece resonates with me. From my perspective, all stages models (including ones that come from women, such as those from Susanne Cook-Greuter and Terri O'Fallon) have to be balanced and integrated alongside the horizontal models and partnership systems mentioned here. Without that integration, it's an ego game. And since the horizontal models and partnership systems don't get *nearly* the same amount of attention as stages models do, there's often a lot of ego inflation in spiritually minded spaces.
Ok, Susanne Cook-Grueter and Terri O'Fallon are new names to me- gonna google immediately. Thanks Jon!
Another thought-provoking post, Celeste. I really believe that the concept of God and religion were created by men in order to gain power and control over people, especially women. I wonder how different the world would be if women had created God and religion. Certainly it would be far better place than it is now. And yes, let's get rid of domination systems and nurture and grow partnership systems. Thanks for bringing Carol Gilligan to our awareness. I've got another book to add to my reading list. I'll gladly join you with the spiritual dummy dums!
So wish we could have an alternate multiverse where women were in charge initially just to see how it would all pan out. Would be fascinating.
The Femaleverse!
Wow now you’ve got me questioning my spiritual sexuality. Ashly physically: she/her, Ashley spiritually: Nephi/Alma
🤣🤣🤣 ok wait I’m obsessed with this
I enjoyed reading this. As a queer male I despise the patriarchy and wish it gone forever. The deconstruction of long-held beliefs and stifling social molds meant to oppress women should be a high priority among critical thinkers. Kudos to you for your bravery in defying the status quo.
Thanks so much Devin!
You're welcome, Celeste. My name is D. C. Devin is a character in my novel.
I’m 7th generation Mormon on both sides of my family so Mormon royalty. I left the church 25 years ago and had my name removed in 2015.
I view deconstruction through the lens of the grief theories of John Bowlby.
https://massaimh.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/CassidyChapter3AttachmentLos_HandbookOfAttachmentT.pdf
Thank you for your perceptive support of women who have left Mormonism.
Thanks for the rec Anne! John Bowlby is new to me.
He did some of the early research on maternal infant bonding and later developed a grief theory that is very fluid. It describes the loss associated with deconstruction perfectly. He’s my go-to guy because his work makes so much sense. I have taught his theories a lot. Some of the work is a little bit dated but the main body of his research and its practical applications still apply. It will add more depth to your ideas. Enjoy.