My thoughts- has anyone talked to women in their 20s and 30s about how lonely they are? And how they want a relationship with a man?
There seems to be yet again media focus on how lonely the men are and nobody is talking to the women who have given up on dating because the men are crude and entitled and arrogant.
The women are lonely! They want a real relationship with a man who is a real person. I think I’ll probably die waiting for that article to be written or that story to be reported.
I would agree. loneliness is up there with fear, anxiety, shame. it's universal. Bell Hooks and Prentis Hemphill write powerfully about loneliness and love as the solution. I agree
I really appreciate the viewpoints you share in your comments on this post, it’s nice to see someone able to recognize this as a two-sided problem that harms everyone, and love as the solution is something I really agree with but rarely see discussed. Empathy is so crucial to deescalating conflicts and if we could just understand both sides of the issue instead of focusing on the one most relevant to us we’d get so much farther in solving this problem
Here, here. Not just empathy as a negotiation tactic (tactical empathy) but as a way to feel connected as people. That always helps. We feel disconnected right now and we need to be connected to each other and ourselves. Hurt people hurt people. Especially men
Like as a woman it’s hard not to feel a little jaded when I see men complaining about loneliness caused by their own flaws, but it’s so important to recognize that while yes, these are problems within their character, that character wasn’t built in a void. There are standards and practices beyond their control that built that character and while they are responsible for changing their negative habits, that change is so so rarely positively enforced or even encouraged. And sometimes it’s hard to want to help that change happen directly when you’ve been directly harmed by men with the same negative traits, but I always remind myself that helping doesn’t mean just blatantly accepting the harmful traits as they are or bearing the brunt of the behaviors, it means working to prevent them from being instilled in the first place and trying to encourage them to find healthier patterns of their own volition. And empathy is always the best way to achieve that end
Thank you for this deeply understanding and emotionally mature layer you’ve added to the conversations. Layers. I feel the forgiveness and compassion you’ve extended which creates so much space for people m, not just to understand the impact of the current conditions, but their place in it and what they can do.
It’s refreshing to hear such an empathetic voice when so many (men) as saying it’s what’s wrong with the world. Keep hammering that point because it’s a key piece whether it’s put in or taken out. Both sides suffer and one sex is unknowingly Weaponized against the other when it’s removed. People need to see the truth of what you’re saying
Probably because men tend to externalize their problems and there is also a nasty little tendency for a few of them to become violent. Women are just blamed for their own problems and keep to themselves.
Look at the stats. Women maintain ties better than men who often rely on wives and girlfriends for a social life. Multiple books have been written about this. Eg Bowling Alone
Women generally have deep and meaningful friendships, so not having a relationship with a man doesn't mean that they're lonely. I wasn't prior to kids, but thought that partnering up was the best option for having kids. Definitely won't be lonely when we formally separate, I'll be relieved to be away from insults, mockery and belittling while I do the majority of everything. (I am in my 30s)
You know, this is a perfect illustration of why men need to step back for a while and let the women try their hand at being in charge. It’s not like we haven’t had our chance, guys, and look where we’ve gotten us: can’t get a date, can’t get a job, can’t get a clue. Reasoned, reasonable, rational explanations like this are invaluable in understanding how we got here and how best to move forward.
She gets it: life’s a journey, not a race. It’s easier together than opposed.
As for the whole “unfuckable” thing, it took some time and effort, but eventually I was able to see my own patriarchal conditioning to view women as kind of a housekeeping robot I could have sex with just might have had an effect on my past relationships.
Two things can be true at once: I can understand that men are victims of Patriarchy and I can also be deeply, deeply tired to my bones of trying to persuade men to evolve. Sick of begging, pleading cajoling that they attempt to become emotionally intelligent, self-aware and a female ally as well as picking up their own goddamn wet towel off the bathroom floor.
Identity politics is the oldest and most perfect tool for division/distraction of people.
The Ruling Class can always agree on how to exploit the working class which is so busy fighting each other for a higher place in the victim hierarchy over skin color, GENDER, religion, etc..
This is why we must go to a 50,000 foot vision of deconstructing the ideology of patriarchy, which is what I am doing on my channels. Helping people understand how this ideology got built into the system and therefore be able to weed it out and create something new.
Spoken like a white male. You make it sound like it’s a choice. Women, non-cis people, non-white people just try to exist and have identities imposed on them and with those imposed identities come experiences we HAVE to navigate. We HAVE to fight to get what we need. Shit ain’t a choice. You’re worried about crab in a barrel mentality. Stop talking to and about the crabs and talk to the people (YOUR people) making the barrel.
So I’m so curious as it sounds like you’re a man who woke up. How did you start that process or what encouraged you to start that process? I run a channel called Deconstructing Patriarchy and I’m highly concerned about this topic because if anybody listens to any of my verbiage long enough people will understand. It’s the ideology that I’m deconstructing not men. And of course this is a question as women are asking is how do men wake up? Because we don’t want the sole responsibility of being the good woman and their lives to do this. We’re exhausted and we don’t want this on our shoulders and yet we care deeply at the same time.
Somewhere between wife #2 and wife #3, I started getting the idea I might be going about this the wrong way. #3 helped - an educated and sophisticated woman, she taught me a lot about women’s issues and feminism. I loved her deeply and wanted to be the best person I could for her. She gets the credit for any small degree of enlightenment I might have attained.
After I lost her, I realized a good part of the problem was women are grateful and thankful for deep, honest, loving relationships and men feel entitled to them. I don’t know how to fix that, sorry.
agh so it was "a good woman" thang...yea that's what I think so many of us are exhausted or fall prey to. Meaning "maybe I can be his 'good woman' that helps him wake up" ...and then stay around much longer than healthy when he doesn't. What motivates men to do this work on their own???
Women. Women motivate us. I don’t know if it’s some leftover grade school urge to please Teacher or chest-beating monkey stuff, but you’ve always brought out the best in us.
I mean, it’s not like our fellow men give us much in the way of wise guidance. Being our inspiration may be as good as it gets.
This is fascinating to me. I changed my whole life but I didn’t do it for a man. I did it for me. In reality though having kids changed me- I felt I had to be the best person I could be- and that meant doing a lot of deep painful work. My first reaction when yall said women motivate us- I wanted to reject it. And honestly I do think u have to do it to some degree for yourself. But if I do it for my kids and men do it for women. Maybe some part of that makes sense. I heard a video once where the woman was speaking and she said that women focus on the kids and the man supports the woman not just physically- because then she can fully show up for the kids. Our system has broken down families. We don’t know how to show up for each other in healthy ways anymore. Women have giving too much in some circumstances and men have taken too much but we are all just ending up emotionally starved. Anyways it makes sense on some level that women motivate men but I also think they need support systems outside of that- healthy council and therapy. Men’s circles, to help with repressed emotions and emotional development. Women are tired and angry. I think men are tired and angry in a different ways. Anyways I am raising three kids, my son is by far harder to raise. He has less role models that are healthy, he is already becoming aware of this at 12yrs. The men in his life are emotionally unavailable. He has a hard time regulating his emotions. He is very emotional and I often want to shut it down because his anger scares me- but we work through it. I see him developing in a whole new way. But I worry about him. Anyways it’s the system that’s broken. Fighting each other is a political tool to divide u. We all have work to do.
Not sure if you all have found breaking down patriarchy on YouTube. She is the closest thing to my work with Deconstructing Patriarchy just from a different angle. Blowing behold, she just released this the other day.
Also, I do have a few things on my channel about fragile masculinity, which is basically what I found this patriarchal masculinity to be called. That’s over on YouTube, but my entire work so far has been about deconstructing the ideology of patriarchy in order to help all of us because if you start to study the patriarchy ideology, you understand how damage it is to all of us Humans!
wait what? So she doesn't write her own scripts???? Okay well that actually makes me feel better. I can tell she has an entire team behind her and it makes me feel a little remedial in my production. But cool - great job and no wonder!
I don’t know how receptive men are going to be towards women being in charge while women are simultaneously so negative towards men. That’s a big ask. That’s submitting to “mad mommy” and the deep seated fear of mommy’s anger has been deeply, deeply programmed into our psyche , pretty much all of us every one.
Feminism is NOT about being in charge. It is about egalitarianism. Power Over is Patriarchy- Empowerment can be secure enough to be affiliative - it wants to be affiliative which lends itself to relationship. Celeste speaks to this is her other posts.
If you are telling ME to get over it your advice is hugely misplaced. I certainly am “over it”. But as I’m a grandfather of seven I look more down the road to future social problems rather than airing my own personal gripes like you seem to be doing.
If you’re telling men in general “get over it”, all you are accomplishing is spreading antagonism in an already antagonistic world. Spreading antagonism just means reaping more antagonism. If that’s your jihad, please block me.
Yes. Let women lead, and let men not be so masculine. Also, if some women weren't so hypermasculine, they would help out the whole group. They're not doing any of us any favors
I don't think men should be feminine. Men should be masculine, which includes a balanced portion of traits that are seen as feminine. Men who are seen as "feminine" as often teased. Women who display masculine traits in the political and corporate worlds are given a seat at the table. That is good. The ones who display hypermasculine traits are part of the problem. I didn't say women shouldn't be masculine. People are confused about gender strictly in the cis world
Imagine Ross Geller as a woman, but on steroids, so to speak. Have you ever seen Suits, the law show? Well, imagine the main character as a woman and unscrupulous. You may have met the type, or seen them on the news. Picture toxic masculinity in a no nonsense corporate shark.
When I think of hypermasculinity in a man, and I don't use that term to refer to men, because I think it undermines masculinity, but it's useful to describe what we're talking about - and thank you for asking, by the way. When I think of hypermasculinity in a man I'm thinking about the alpha. That's not really masculine, is it, it's a cartoon of what we think masculinity is. And some women take that persona and make it their own, because it works - it's produces what the world calls 'achievement'
I think people should be more concerned with being a good human and less concerned with how well they fit traditional gender roles. Neither men displaying feminine traits nor women displaying “hypermasculine” traits deserve criticism for that alone. Leave people in peace if they’re not actually doing anything to harm you.
who said anything about gender roles? who said anything critical about people displaying traits belonging to a gender?
you've made an assumption and/or you've misunderstood me.
I was talking about toxic behavior that is often displayed in men - that doesn't mean that it's my gender role to be a toxic alpha dude. is that what role you think men should play?
I used toxic masculinity as an example of a type of behavior. that's not a gender role. I made up a term to describe deleterious behavior being exhibited by men and women. there's no term that I know of for that behavior so I made one up.
And that behavior is hurting me and the women I love, and the children around me. And most of us do not lack the agency to do something about it
Who said anything about gender roles? You did. Men displaying feminine traits, “hypermasculine” women. Pretty sure those would qualify as being “about gender roles.”
Anyway, I get the feeling you’re looking more for an argument than a conversation, and I fail to see how this accomplishes anything. We seem to be more or less on the same page about the drawbacks of toxic masculinity and if that’s as good as it gets, I’m okay with it.
You’re still pointing the finger at women for a problem that belongs almost exclusively to men.
And even if that were the case, there’s nothing you can do to fix their “hypermasculinity” - all you can do is work on yourself and be the best person you can be. What other people do is on them, not on you.
I agree that women embracing their own version of toxic masculinity isn’t the solution if that’s what you’re getting at here.
I didn't point the finger of blame at anyone. I'm simply observing something I don't see anyone else talking about. I didn't say it was a problem, I didn't suggest a solution, and I'm sure the phenomenon would go away by itself if we didn't live in a patriarchal world.
I'm not sure what problem you're referring to or why it belongs exclusively to men. I think we all have to take responsibility for the problems of society. I don't think it makes sense to just shirk it off and say it's men's problem to sort out, whatever problem it is that you're referring to. Look at where that has gotten us.
There's a big difference between blame and responsibility. And there's a difference between responsibility and agency. I think women have more agency than you suggest they do, and what I said at the beginning was that women should be in leadership. Perhaps you missed that bit. I didn't suggest any solutions either. I wasn't trying to fix anything. It's just a conversation.
You're saying that what other people do is on them, fair enough. But I don't agree with enabling behavior that's antithetical to the kind of society we all want to live in. I'd rather see women owning their own businesses and hiring women rather than being a corporate shark and playing dirty with the good ol' boys. I'd rather see a woman become a CEO and reinvent the company, or start her own. I think it's playing small to say "we're going to beat them at their own game"...why do that if there's an option to play a different game, or to play whatever kind of game you want with integrity. It may be a man's world, and we may all have to play by the rules, but that doesn't mean women have to beat men at their own games. That's not the best solution. There are ways to bend the rules, to look for opportunities. There are plenty of women banding together and starting women owned companies, owning business, land in collectives and playing the landlord game but not being a toxic landlord. And a lot of them are doing it abroad, which is a good idea, because the policy for the next year may will land ownership rights and may change them for (white) women. We will see.
My perspective as a 70 year old man is that lonliness is relative. We live in a world/country overpopulated. There are plenty of others to connect with.
The problem as I speculate is
1. Scott has not been alone enough to discover who he is. Himself. As a living breathing being.
Self awareness is first.
2. Scott I suspect is locked into his class friend comfort level that he could consider stepping out of even though it will feel scary.
3. Men supporting men, men valuing male companionship, men feeling comfortable around other men is a thing. Scott needs to consider his lonliness is self generated from over protective boundaries.
4. There are enough people in the world/country/state/town or city to make a connection with.
Opening ourselves up to connections beyond our limited perspective is a thing.
At 20 years of age co-editor of Changing Men a forum for changing men- in support of feminism. Mother was a role model and father opposite. Struggled to find a path to like myself as male, as I hated the culture. Continue to stay on path of awareness.
So it sounds like you’ve done the work on yourself to understand how to have i.e. feminist characteristics of compassion, empathy, connection. The question is was that something you were born with or came to later in life? If youwere born with this idea instilled than you either by your family or just nature, how did you feel when you bumped up against the patriarchal masculinity in society? And as a male, how do you talk to other men who maybe are not red pilled but men like I guess Scot or Robert who she mentions in this article?
I love this post. I've been trying to promote the "2 things can be true " mantra for ages, but of course, it's difficult because at best, you make no friends, at worst you get shamed and shut down. Fear and misunderstanding makes us less smart. We fail to see we are being manipulated by the patriarchy, who are using the archetypal, old as time playbook: divide and conquer. It works. Every. Single. Time. We do need to look out for the guys, but guys, you need to be much more feministic. We obviously understand your 'not all men' cry when you feel judged by us, but you KNOW the rotten apples. Stop making excuses for them. Let's join forces and change the world for the good, for everyone.
agreed, guys need to be more feminist. and I always advocate to both/and, I'm totally with you. if it brings up people's heckles, it probably means the idea is too rich for them to digest, let alone stomach. but really, we're all adults, and all adults can hold two opposing ideas in their minds. it's really not too much to ask
The line that stood out to me was about natural selection. The shifts taking place in terms of career and educational attainment for women are profound. And I believe that men who do not adapt to this shift will increasingly have trouble finding women who are desirable to them.
Yesterday I read an essay on Substack about the horrific decades long rape of that woman in France, and how so many men––hundreds–– were involved and none spoke up. And it made me think that none of those men were properly brought up to respect women.
I don't have sympathy for men who abuse women in any way and I think we men need to have a zero tolerance policy to even associate with men who don't properly respect women.
And this needs to start at the top of society. For example, Bill Clinton ought to be persona non grata for what he did to Monica Lewinsky. And any man who has supported or still supports Donald Trump needs to ask themselves why they support a known abuser of women.
I know. I wish more men would ask themselves if they would want their wife, daughter, sister, or mother left alone with a known abuser. And if not, why would they support him?
“The line that stood out to me was about natural selection. The shifts taking place in terms of career and educational attainment for women are profound. And I believe that men who do not adapt to this shift will increasingly have trouble finding women who are desirable to them.”
I don’t think this will turn out how you think. The end result is more likely to be that progressive (feminist) cultures subsidizing limitless female choice simply die off due to lack of reproduction. Religious, patriarchal societies produce many children and are sustainable, even if progressives believe them to be unfair. The future belongs to those who breed.
The person you responded to didn't advocate for any particular scenario, they're simply saying what they think will happen. They're describing what sounds like a plausible scenario on the surface, and I say this as a progressive, happily child free person.
To take it to an extreme, the (satirical) movie Idiocracy plays out this scenario.
I’m not advocating forced breeding, your accusation is unhinged and unproven. Me pointing out progressives societies have terrible birth rates compared with religious ones isn’t advocating for forcing breeding. It’s simply observing that one will outlast the other. This isn’t that hard to figure out.
1. None of those things are exclusive to an exploitative patriarchal society 2. Maybe we shouldn't be building our society around ensuring we have enough bodies to use as fodder for war? What a great example of patriarchal thinking!
Thank you Celeste for this fabulous essay. I will bookmark it and share it widely.
During conversations regarding patriarchy my 16-year-old son has said things recently like "guys like me", which makes me sad because while I want him to possess an awareness of this system, I don't want him to internalize it as feeling like he's automatically part of the problem for being born with XY chromosomes. My son is kind, thoughtful, sensitive and as long as he remains open to striving for equality, accountability, and empathy, he will remain on a path towards equality outside of the system that tells him he must be masculine and unfeeling and entitled.
Ultimately, we are all victimized by this system, but can choose to educate ourselves about the system, self-reflect on the ways it has affected us, and then determine how to use our words and actions to help dismantle a harmful system (or to strengthen it). I am currently seeking more male role models for my son who also has lost his father figure (not because of courts, and not because of his mother's actions, but because of his father's decision to not participate in his life or prioritize him).
I'm hopeful that my ability to speak more plainly about the ways that patriarchy harmed me and my marriage and what I'm doing about it now will help both my daughter and my son to navigate these times with more awareness than I had at their age. The sad thing is that misogyny and patriarchal programming are mainly perpetuated in the privacy of the family home, behind closed doors where it's challenging to address directly.
You've done a great job in this article getting to the root of the issue and I am much appreciative of your work Celeste!
I feel your pain, sister. But on the flipside. My ex convinced me we were coparenting well enough together that he essentially weed me out of my son’s lives in order to gain full custody, attempt to sue me for a measly 25% of my income when he’s a multimillionaire and of course stop paying me any child support that it would allow me the cushion. I need to even be able to show up in my boys lives. I’m about to share my personal deconstruction journey out of that toxic marriage and religion on my channel over on YouTube. You can go to my sub stack if you’re interested, which is Deconstructing Patriarchy but you probably can get to it through my profile pic. All the links in there are in that pinned post at the top.
Yes I’ve adored Celeste’s work around this topic and really want to send my boys a lot of this, but I still have to be ultra careful since they live full-time in his home. And I don’t have a super connected relationship because of all of that.
What an honor to see you in my comment section Niobe ❤️❤️
If you guys want actual data with actual solutions on why boys and men are falling behind- reading Niobe’s book Rebel With a Cause- reimagining boys, ourselves and our culture: https://a.co/d/767nbA4
This looks phenomenal. Question as I look at your FAQs, do you take into consideration the creation of patriarchy by Gerda learner or any of that type of work? That that’s the Root problem of all of us and until we identify the ideology of patriarchy that got ruined into our psyche’s 6000 years ago we won’t be able to undo it?
You seem very enthusiastic and I'd encourage you to read more of Celeste's work before asking these kinds of questions; you'll find plenty of answers in what she has already written and collaborated on. She is well-read in feminist literature.
This question wasn't for Celeste's work. I can absolutely tell she has read this info and uses it in her work as I do in mine. This was for Niobe Way's book
Spot on, but here's the rub: Even the mention of the word "patriarchy" is enough to shut a lot of men (and women) down. They don't know what it means other than surrendering their place at the top of the hierarchy/caste. The notion that there might be something beyond hierarchical culture is beyond them.
Yes yes Diane. The word feels like a deal breaker in movement making. An ambiguous enemy is tougher to fight. I’ve been thinking a lot lately about how do we galvanize people around something as abstract as a system? I’m personally glad this Reeves doesn’t use the term. It’s far better he reach more and use stories to demonstrate without dividing.
"I’ve been thinking a lot lately about how do we galvanize people around something as abstract as a system" -- I'm too tired at this point to suggest anything - been at it on and off most of my life. If you come up with anything, let me know.
Oh gosh I’m just an amateur considering the problems of pros for the love of it. I hope you didn’t take that as diminishing. It’s admiration. I’m so glad to know of you and your work now.
Brilliant as usual! You explain the reasons behind my struggles with men, and the frustrations of so many young people today. May your message travel far and wide because we need your bridge building insights to get us through the current mess.
Hey Karin, not sure if you found my work on Deconstructing Patriarchy. But this is basically all I talk about is the idea ideology of patriarchy and how it has warmed its way into our psyche and become a chronic disease. I help people see that expose it and remove it and create something new at the same time.
It confirmed what I already knew, which is that young men are falling behind and being outpaced by young women bc of their lack of motivation, not bc they're "being left behind," but the article opened my eyes even more. We can/do offer men all the help they say they want and don't get, but many won't/don't take it. This lack of motivation, and often plain refusal, to put in the work for what they want also applies to relationships with women, not just work and educational opportunities. There's a very obvious sense of entitlement to have a woman in their life when I see/hear men talk about being lonely; if they really want it, they're supposed to have it.
This difference in young men & women is something I see a play out in my own house with my 24 yo daughter and 25 yo stepson. My daughter has worked since she was 16, currently works 2 jobs to save money to move back out, and pays all her own bills. My stepson on the other hand is 25 and has only had 1 job for 2 years (he got at 18) and 1 job for 3 weeks. Scott G says a relationship/sex with a woman is the only thing that motivates men to act like responsible adults, but even that doesn't always work anymore. Stepson lived with a gf, who he was totally in love with, for 1 year before she ended things bc she was tired of working all day while he sat home. So MANY women of all ages have dealt with the same thing and realized it's better to be single than to be a mother to a man who's supposed to be a partner.
I suspect easily accessible pornography doesn't help much with the motivation and drive aspects for young men. And they're exposed before their brains are mature enough to think critically about what they're consuming. It's grooming and setting them up for relationship (and sometimes life) failure.
“Patriarchy hurts women AND patriarchy hurts men and we can have compassion for both.”
This absolutely encapsulates the stance that's needed for genuine, deep, lasting change. The progressive wing of the men's movement in the 1980's and 90's ended up largely eclipsed by the binary thinking you're critiquing. When men look with clarity at the havoc patriarchy has wrought, in the lives of women but also in our own, then the world can change.
So well, said David. If you haven’t seen my work on Deconstructing Patriarchy, I think he would enjoy it. I talk all about deconstructing the ideology of patriarchy which harms all of us in different ways
I would advise everyone to NOT take this statistics on male loneliness at face value. There is just a HUGE amount of context that is missing and which is giving a chance to give a spin that turns women into villains and men into victims. That simply is not reality.
For instance swipe rate means very little in real life. That is not representative of the degree to which men and women hook up. This kind of analysis is deeply skewed because it ignored that far more men use dating apps than women. It ignores the general usage of dating apps is not as high as one thinks. It also looks at behavior on the computer rather than what men and women end up agreeing in the real physical world. Hint, it is nothing as bad as it seems.
Finally we must stop this silly game of trying to determine WHICH gender is most at fault. Reality is that this development is far more a consequence of technological change than specific change in each gender. If we want to fix these issues start by regulating technology rather than impose particular behavior and lifestyles on particular genders.
It is popular to blame feminism but as a Scandinavian we have been through this kind of change decades longer than the US, and we do not have the same issues. In fact conflicts between gender is likely much lower here than in more traditional societies. Read up on South Korea for instance where it is getting very extreme.
I lived in the US 20 years ago, and my take would be that the US still has a long way to go gender equality and that is actually a strong contributor to many of the issues American men face today. We have long had many divorces and out of wedlock births in the Nordic region but thanks to a well built out welfare system that has not stopped men from being very actively involved in raising children. Who generally push for these kinds of welfare services? That is women! So people need to stop making women the chief problem. They are not.
Hehe depends on what you are looking for. Nordics is big on gender equality, but that can have pros and cons judging from what I see American women comment on sometimes online. Like the whole thing of the man picking you up, paying the whole dinner on a date, is much less a thing here. Women earn closer to men, but that has the flip side expectation of much more sharing of bills and expenses. On the other hand men are also more expected to contribute at home with child care, house work etc.
I joke that Nordics is a bit like the hobbit shire. People are really into the ordinary life. I know really ambitious people who want to make rapid careers and make lots of money are less satisfied with Nordic society because Nordic is more work-life balance oriented society. Like your boss will come tell you that you ought to take some time off if you are working too long days.
I have rarely been with a man who pays for my dinner, and never been with one who pays for my vacation, or for my car or my home. I am the opposite of spoiled. I have had to fight my own battles and I barely know what it is like for a man to have my back. I experienced it ONCE when I lived in the Middle East. I am sure I'd be content in the Nordic world except for the fact that I would not know the language. (By the way, I've been living in Italy for the past eight years and have also lived in India and Qatar. I am not very American.)
Wow, but language is no issue here. Everyone speaks English. I got American friends here who lived here for over a decade and still can hardly say more than two three words.
Learning the local language is of course a bonus. It makes it easier to blend into the culture but it not a requirement.
Well, yes, you guys and gals are great with learning other languages. And while I "could" live there and use only my own language, it would not be my first choice. In Italy, I speak Italian and honestly, I'd hate to be one of those Americans who lives in Italy for decades and never learns the language. But luckily I learned it in my twenties when it was easier. Now, in my fifties, (with much more "life exhaustion") I am not sure I could properly tackle a Nordic language.😟 Italy is a beautiful country and has all the art and history I love, but the men SUCK. They are VERY sexist. I mean seriously, you would not believe my experiences. And the few that are decent and not sexist are taken, of course!
So, the Americans you know there, what kind of visa do they have? Are they married to locals?
I am very thankful to see you talk about Scott Galloway. After I came across his viral TED talk video, I followed him, but there was something about him that I felt was quite wrong. He seems liberal and seems to care about "MEN," but listening to him as a young woman, I don't want my boyfriend or my brother to listen to him. Until I realize that he is "fighting against patriarchy" with a different version of patriarchy; this became so apparent when he talks about women being too picky on the dating apps while neglecting the facts that women pay more price or even their life, if they are too generous with the literal strangers on the internet. And why does he have to use "coffee" to refer to a woman?!!!
Unfortunately, plenty of leftist men are raised in the same misogyny right-wing men are. Andrea Dworkin said it well: "To right-wing men, we are private property. To left-wing men, we are public property." Obligatory "not all men" here; some are really doing the work and see our humanity. But many don't want to change the existing hierarchies of patriarchy and capitalism (including gender), only their personal place in it.
"What are your thoughts on the male loneliness epidemic? What did I leave out? Are you concerned about it? Are you not? Are you tired of talking about it? Let us know."
Oh, Celeste. Whenever I imagine your collective illusion-destroying fire couldn't get any hotter, you prove me so happily wrong🔥👏🏻
What I know in every cell of my healing being is that non-duality--the coming home to our brutiful human Paradox--IS healing. Seems to me that's what this article and the heart of work is all about. And that's why I love you; you're a healer.
What I would add to this--as both a victim of extremely violent misogynistic child abuse AND the mother of a middle school son whom I love more than anything in the universe--is that there is a dualistic notion that needs further dismantling hidden in the idea that any of us can change systems before we heal our Selves.
Patriarchy is one of many forms of TRAUMA, which underlies every single problem threatening our entire species today. Domination is trauma's food. Patriarchy feeds it; capitalism feeds it; all dualistic notions of fighting for good/bad/right/wrong feeds it. Addiction, disease, and loneliness: these are all symptoms of our collective disease. Treating symptoms doesn't heal root causes (I know you know this!).
The most confusing and counterintuitive aspect of healing is that we cannot get there (to healing) without first being here (victims). Both women and men are absolutely victims of domination indoctrination. Just like children of abuse believe they are the problem because it seems so much safer to believe we can change ourselves than our parents, we've been assuming we the humans are the problem (kind of like brothers versus sisters, fighting/blaming each other instead of helping each other escape our abusive and neglectful "home").
I'm really hopeful about the future because I know the fact we are finally letting ourselves feel the anger and grief of our collective abuse under systems of violence and domination is an indication we're finally on the path to healing it. It sucks when we're in the middle of it, but we gotta let ourselves feel like victims before we can stop blaming ourselves and each other. Once we fully feel the losses of our humanity under domination, we can and will grow up enough to build something human again; something entirely removed from domination's patriarchal cage.
As a young man myself, the section on seeing your kids transition from innocence to be victims to the patriarchy hit me particularly strongly. I wonder how I have been subtly influenced as I have grown up, and what I can do to be a force of happiness for not only the men and women in my life but for all. Great read!
Empathy and being able to hear someone out and admit when you have been wrong is tantamount for ALL OF US to be a force for happiness in each other's lives. Happiness requires acknowledging and processing unhappiness together.
Isn’t it ironic that men who hate feminists because “they blame everything on men,” also want to blame everything on women?
That aside, I wholeheartedly agree with your arguments for less dualistic thinking about these complex issues.
I’ve been a huge proponent of Terry Real for years because of the way he holds men to account with love and helps women do what you are suggesting: to empathize with male loneliness et al, but remember it isn’t their responsibility to do the emotional labor for them.
My approach to feminism and towards men is similar, to remember that feminism and matriarchy are liberation for all, but not responsibility for the work of all— after all we’ve already been doing that since humans evolved. That is to mean, instead of denying men’s pain because of the current fighting between gender, we acknowledge and then point to the systems they haven’t had to notice as the root.
My thoughts- has anyone talked to women in their 20s and 30s about how lonely they are? And how they want a relationship with a man?
There seems to be yet again media focus on how lonely the men are and nobody is talking to the women who have given up on dating because the men are crude and entitled and arrogant.
The women are lonely! They want a real relationship with a man who is a real person. I think I’ll probably die waiting for that article to be written or that story to be reported.
Yes! A recent post by @Cartoons Hate Her dove into studies finding that women are just as lonely as men!
But the media in general is focused only on how lonely the men are. 🤷🏻♀️
Because lonely men are scary, because they might do something "drastic", but lonely women are not seen as scary.
I would agree. loneliness is up there with fear, anxiety, shame. it's universal. Bell Hooks and Prentis Hemphill write powerfully about loneliness and love as the solution. I agree
I really appreciate the viewpoints you share in your comments on this post, it’s nice to see someone able to recognize this as a two-sided problem that harms everyone, and love as the solution is something I really agree with but rarely see discussed. Empathy is so crucial to deescalating conflicts and if we could just understand both sides of the issue instead of focusing on the one most relevant to us we’d get so much farther in solving this problem
Here, here. Not just empathy as a negotiation tactic (tactical empathy) but as a way to feel connected as people. That always helps. We feel disconnected right now and we need to be connected to each other and ourselves. Hurt people hurt people. Especially men
Like as a woman it’s hard not to feel a little jaded when I see men complaining about loneliness caused by their own flaws, but it’s so important to recognize that while yes, these are problems within their character, that character wasn’t built in a void. There are standards and practices beyond their control that built that character and while they are responsible for changing their negative habits, that change is so so rarely positively enforced or even encouraged. And sometimes it’s hard to want to help that change happen directly when you’ve been directly harmed by men with the same negative traits, but I always remind myself that helping doesn’t mean just blatantly accepting the harmful traits as they are or bearing the brunt of the behaviors, it means working to prevent them from being instilled in the first place and trying to encourage them to find healthier patterns of their own volition. And empathy is always the best way to achieve that end
Thank you for this deeply understanding and emotionally mature layer you’ve added to the conversations. Layers. I feel the forgiveness and compassion you’ve extended which creates so much space for people m, not just to understand the impact of the current conditions, but their place in it and what they can do.
It’s refreshing to hear such an empathetic voice when so many (men) as saying it’s what’s wrong with the world. Keep hammering that point because it’s a key piece whether it’s put in or taken out. Both sides suffer and one sex is unknowingly Weaponized against the other when it’s removed. People need to see the truth of what you’re saying
Probably because men tend to externalize their problems and there is also a nasty little tendency for a few of them to become violent. Women are just blamed for their own problems and keep to themselves.
Maybe because loneliness isn't about romantic relationships it's about friendships. Women have friends.
Look at the stats. Women maintain ties better than men who often rely on wives and girlfriends for a social life. Multiple books have been written about this. Eg Bowling Alone
Women generally have deep and meaningful friendships, so not having a relationship with a man doesn't mean that they're lonely. I wasn't prior to kids, but thought that partnering up was the best option for having kids. Definitely won't be lonely when we formally separate, I'll be relieved to be away from insults, mockery and belittling while I do the majority of everything. (I am in my 30s)
You know, this is a perfect illustration of why men need to step back for a while and let the women try their hand at being in charge. It’s not like we haven’t had our chance, guys, and look where we’ve gotten us: can’t get a date, can’t get a job, can’t get a clue. Reasoned, reasonable, rational explanations like this are invaluable in understanding how we got here and how best to move forward.
She gets it: life’s a journey, not a race. It’s easier together than opposed.
As for the whole “unfuckable” thing, it took some time and effort, but eventually I was able to see my own patriarchal conditioning to view women as kind of a housekeeping robot I could have sex with just might have had an effect on my past relationships.
Two things can be true at once: I can understand that men are victims of Patriarchy and I can also be deeply, deeply tired to my bones of trying to persuade men to evolve. Sick of begging, pleading cajoling that they attempt to become emotionally intelligent, self-aware and a female ally as well as picking up their own goddamn wet towel off the bathroom floor.
Sadly, that's me too right now.
Identity politics is the oldest and most perfect tool for division/distraction of people.
The Ruling Class can always agree on how to exploit the working class which is so busy fighting each other for a higher place in the victim hierarchy over skin color, GENDER, religion, etc..
G. Carlin explains Identity politics:
youtube.com/shorts/pqcweohOpdA
"Divide (by religion, race, age, gender, party etc.), Distract (by "Culture wars") and Conquer"
-The Imperialist deep state's strategy in a nutshell
BTW The godmother of bourgeois liberal feminism, Gloria Steinem, was a CIA agent:
youtu.be/O1sJ2uZ4aaQ?t=208
This is why we must go to a 50,000 foot vision of deconstructing the ideology of patriarchy, which is what I am doing on my channels. Helping people understand how this ideology got built into the system and therefore be able to weed it out and create something new.
Spoken like a white male. You make it sound like it’s a choice. Women, non-cis people, non-white people just try to exist and have identities imposed on them and with those imposed identities come experiences we HAVE to navigate. We HAVE to fight to get what we need. Shit ain’t a choice. You’re worried about crab in a barrel mentality. Stop talking to and about the crabs and talk to the people (YOUR people) making the barrel.
Yeah, like "cis" isn't an identity imposed on people.
*ahem*
😂😂😂😂😂😂
Seriously though, please enlighten me on the systemic consequences of having the “cis” identity “imposed” on you. I’ll be waiting.
Because I'm not cis.
So I’m so curious as it sounds like you’re a man who woke up. How did you start that process or what encouraged you to start that process? I run a channel called Deconstructing Patriarchy and I’m highly concerned about this topic because if anybody listens to any of my verbiage long enough people will understand. It’s the ideology that I’m deconstructing not men. And of course this is a question as women are asking is how do men wake up? Because we don’t want the sole responsibility of being the good woman and their lives to do this. We’re exhausted and we don’t want this on our shoulders and yet we care deeply at the same time.
Somewhere between wife #2 and wife #3, I started getting the idea I might be going about this the wrong way. #3 helped - an educated and sophisticated woman, she taught me a lot about women’s issues and feminism. I loved her deeply and wanted to be the best person I could for her. She gets the credit for any small degree of enlightenment I might have attained.
After I lost her, I realized a good part of the problem was women are grateful and thankful for deep, honest, loving relationships and men feel entitled to them. I don’t know how to fix that, sorry.
agh so it was "a good woman" thang...yea that's what I think so many of us are exhausted or fall prey to. Meaning "maybe I can be his 'good woman' that helps him wake up" ...and then stay around much longer than healthy when he doesn't. What motivates men to do this work on their own???
Women. Women motivate us. I don’t know if it’s some leftover grade school urge to please Teacher or chest-beating monkey stuff, but you’ve always brought out the best in us.
I mean, it’s not like our fellow men give us much in the way of wise guidance. Being our inspiration may be as good as it gets.
*Losing women. That's what motivates men.
This is fascinating to me. I changed my whole life but I didn’t do it for a man. I did it for me. In reality though having kids changed me- I felt I had to be the best person I could be- and that meant doing a lot of deep painful work. My first reaction when yall said women motivate us- I wanted to reject it. And honestly I do think u have to do it to some degree for yourself. But if I do it for my kids and men do it for women. Maybe some part of that makes sense. I heard a video once where the woman was speaking and she said that women focus on the kids and the man supports the woman not just physically- because then she can fully show up for the kids. Our system has broken down families. We don’t know how to show up for each other in healthy ways anymore. Women have giving too much in some circumstances and men have taken too much but we are all just ending up emotionally starved. Anyways it makes sense on some level that women motivate men but I also think they need support systems outside of that- healthy council and therapy. Men’s circles, to help with repressed emotions and emotional development. Women are tired and angry. I think men are tired and angry in a different ways. Anyways I am raising three kids, my son is by far harder to raise. He has less role models that are healthy, he is already becoming aware of this at 12yrs. The men in his life are emotionally unavailable. He has a hard time regulating his emotions. He is very emotional and I often want to shut it down because his anger scares me- but we work through it. I see him developing in a whole new way. But I worry about him. Anyways it’s the system that’s broken. Fighting each other is a political tool to divide u. We all have work to do.
Not sure if you all have found breaking down patriarchy on YouTube. She is the closest thing to my work with Deconstructing Patriarchy just from a different angle. Blowing behold, she just released this the other day.
https://youtu.be/bHvV82dQEKo?si=9iVyvcSXMNoxUb2g
Also, I do have a few things on my channel about fragile masculinity, which is basically what I found this patriarchal masculinity to be called. That’s over on YouTube, but my entire work so far has been about deconstructing the ideology of patriarchy in order to help all of us because if you start to study the patriarchy ideology, you understand how damage it is to all of us Humans!
Ha I wrote that script. I write for Breaking Down Patriarchy
wait what? So she doesn't write her own scripts???? Okay well that actually makes me feel better. I can tell she has an entire team behind her and it makes me feel a little remedial in my production. But cool - great job and no wonder!
I don’t know how receptive men are going to be towards women being in charge while women are simultaneously so negative towards men. That’s a big ask. That’s submitting to “mad mommy” and the deep seated fear of mommy’s anger has been deeply, deeply programmed into our psyche , pretty much all of us every one.
Feminism is NOT about being in charge. It is about egalitarianism. Power Over is Patriarchy- Empowerment can be secure enough to be affiliative - it wants to be affiliative which lends itself to relationship. Celeste speaks to this is her other posts.
I was responding to the post about women should be in charge. Not about feminism in general.
👍 I think culture needs to learn how to share power - instead of all the influence given to entitled oligarchs of oppression.
Get over it.
If you are telling ME to get over it your advice is hugely misplaced. I certainly am “over it”. But as I’m a grandfather of seven I look more down the road to future social problems rather than airing my own personal gripes like you seem to be doing.
If you’re telling men in general “get over it”, all you are accomplishing is spreading antagonism in an already antagonistic world. Spreading antagonism just means reaping more antagonism. If that’s your jihad, please block me.
If the advice doesn’t apply, don’t take it. No need to whine about it.
If you’re having trouble keeping up, perhaps you should take your own advice and use that block button.
Cool this is the point I think
Yes. Let women lead, and let men not be so masculine. Also, if some women weren't so hypermasculine, they would help out the whole group. They're not doing any of us any favors
You think men should be allowed to be “feminine” but take issue with “hypermasculine” women?
I don't think men should be feminine. Men should be masculine, which includes a balanced portion of traits that are seen as feminine. Men who are seen as "feminine" as often teased. Women who display masculine traits in the political and corporate worlds are given a seat at the table. That is good. The ones who display hypermasculine traits are part of the problem. I didn't say women shouldn't be masculine. People are confused about gender strictly in the cis world
I too would like to hear what you consider “hyper masculine” traits and why it’s a problem when women display them.
It's a problem because it doesn't advance feminism, it underscores patriarchal dominance and continues oppression
I’m curious about what you consider hypermasculine
Imagine Ross Geller as a woman, but on steroids, so to speak. Have you ever seen Suits, the law show? Well, imagine the main character as a woman and unscrupulous. You may have met the type, or seen them on the news. Picture toxic masculinity in a no nonsense corporate shark.
When I think of hypermasculinity in a man, and I don't use that term to refer to men, because I think it undermines masculinity, but it's useful to describe what we're talking about - and thank you for asking, by the way. When I think of hypermasculinity in a man I'm thinking about the alpha. That's not really masculine, is it, it's a cartoon of what we think masculinity is. And some women take that persona and make it their own, because it works - it's produces what the world calls 'achievement'
I think people should be more concerned with being a good human and less concerned with how well they fit traditional gender roles. Neither men displaying feminine traits nor women displaying “hypermasculine” traits deserve criticism for that alone. Leave people in peace if they’re not actually doing anything to harm you.
who said anything about gender roles? who said anything critical about people displaying traits belonging to a gender?
you've made an assumption and/or you've misunderstood me.
I was talking about toxic behavior that is often displayed in men - that doesn't mean that it's my gender role to be a toxic alpha dude. is that what role you think men should play?
I used toxic masculinity as an example of a type of behavior. that's not a gender role. I made up a term to describe deleterious behavior being exhibited by men and women. there's no term that I know of for that behavior so I made one up.
And that behavior is hurting me and the women I love, and the children around me. And most of us do not lack the agency to do something about it
Who said anything about gender roles? You did. Men displaying feminine traits, “hypermasculine” women. Pretty sure those would qualify as being “about gender roles.”
Anyway, I get the feeling you’re looking more for an argument than a conversation, and I fail to see how this accomplishes anything. We seem to be more or less on the same page about the drawbacks of toxic masculinity and if that’s as good as it gets, I’m okay with it.
You’re still pointing the finger at women for a problem that belongs almost exclusively to men.
And even if that were the case, there’s nothing you can do to fix their “hypermasculinity” - all you can do is work on yourself and be the best person you can be. What other people do is on them, not on you.
I agree that women embracing their own version of toxic masculinity isn’t the solution if that’s what you’re getting at here.
I didn't point the finger of blame at anyone. I'm simply observing something I don't see anyone else talking about. I didn't say it was a problem, I didn't suggest a solution, and I'm sure the phenomenon would go away by itself if we didn't live in a patriarchal world.
I'm not sure what problem you're referring to or why it belongs exclusively to men. I think we all have to take responsibility for the problems of society. I don't think it makes sense to just shirk it off and say it's men's problem to sort out, whatever problem it is that you're referring to. Look at where that has gotten us.
There's a big difference between blame and responsibility. And there's a difference between responsibility and agency. I think women have more agency than you suggest they do, and what I said at the beginning was that women should be in leadership. Perhaps you missed that bit. I didn't suggest any solutions either. I wasn't trying to fix anything. It's just a conversation.
You're saying that what other people do is on them, fair enough. But I don't agree with enabling behavior that's antithetical to the kind of society we all want to live in. I'd rather see women owning their own businesses and hiring women rather than being a corporate shark and playing dirty with the good ol' boys. I'd rather see a woman become a CEO and reinvent the company, or start her own. I think it's playing small to say "we're going to beat them at their own game"...why do that if there's an option to play a different game, or to play whatever kind of game you want with integrity. It may be a man's world, and we may all have to play by the rules, but that doesn't mean women have to beat men at their own games. That's not the best solution. There are ways to bend the rules, to look for opportunities. There are plenty of women banding together and starting women owned companies, owning business, land in collectives and playing the landlord game but not being a toxic landlord. And a lot of them are doing it abroad, which is a good idea, because the policy for the next year may will land ownership rights and may change them for (white) women. We will see.
Thank you for writing about this.
My perspective as a 70 year old man is that lonliness is relative. We live in a world/country overpopulated. There are plenty of others to connect with.
The problem as I speculate is
1. Scott has not been alone enough to discover who he is. Himself. As a living breathing being.
Self awareness is first.
2. Scott I suspect is locked into his class friend comfort level that he could consider stepping out of even though it will feel scary.
3. Men supporting men, men valuing male companionship, men feeling comfortable around other men is a thing. Scott needs to consider his lonliness is self generated from over protective boundaries.
4. There are enough people in the world/country/state/town or city to make a connection with.
Opening ourselves up to connections beyond our limited perspective is a thing.
Thank you for this article.
At 20 years of age co-editor of Changing Men a forum for changing men- in support of feminism. Mother was a role model and father opposite. Struggled to find a path to like myself as male, as I hated the culture. Continue to stay on path of awareness.
And the beat goes on…
So it sounds like you’ve done the work on yourself to understand how to have i.e. feminist characteristics of compassion, empathy, connection. The question is was that something you were born with or came to later in life? If youwere born with this idea instilled than you either by your family or just nature, how did you feel when you bumped up against the patriarchal masculinity in society? And as a male, how do you talk to other men who maybe are not red pilled but men like I guess Scot or Robert who she mentions in this article?
I love this post. I've been trying to promote the "2 things can be true " mantra for ages, but of course, it's difficult because at best, you make no friends, at worst you get shamed and shut down. Fear and misunderstanding makes us less smart. We fail to see we are being manipulated by the patriarchy, who are using the archetypal, old as time playbook: divide and conquer. It works. Every. Single. Time. We do need to look out for the guys, but guys, you need to be much more feministic. We obviously understand your 'not all men' cry when you feel judged by us, but you KNOW the rotten apples. Stop making excuses for them. Let's join forces and change the world for the good, for everyone.
agreed, guys need to be more feminist. and I always advocate to both/and, I'm totally with you. if it brings up people's heckles, it probably means the idea is too rich for them to digest, let alone stomach. but really, we're all adults, and all adults can hold two opposing ideas in their minds. it's really not too much to ask
The line that stood out to me was about natural selection. The shifts taking place in terms of career and educational attainment for women are profound. And I believe that men who do not adapt to this shift will increasingly have trouble finding women who are desirable to them.
Yesterday I read an essay on Substack about the horrific decades long rape of that woman in France, and how so many men––hundreds–– were involved and none spoke up. And it made me think that none of those men were properly brought up to respect women.
I don't have sympathy for men who abuse women in any way and I think we men need to have a zero tolerance policy to even associate with men who don't properly respect women.
And this needs to start at the top of society. For example, Bill Clinton ought to be persona non grata for what he did to Monica Lewinsky. And any man who has supported or still supports Donald Trump needs to ask themselves why they support a known abuser of women.
Could not agree more. Thanks David!
53% of white women voted for #Felon47 - it’s not just men
I know. I wish more men would ask themselves if they would want their wife, daughter, sister, or mother left alone with a known abuser. And if not, why would they support him?
“The line that stood out to me was about natural selection. The shifts taking place in terms of career and educational attainment for women are profound. And I believe that men who do not adapt to this shift will increasingly have trouble finding women who are desirable to them.”
I don’t think this will turn out how you think. The end result is more likely to be that progressive (feminist) cultures subsidizing limitless female choice simply die off due to lack of reproduction. Religious, patriarchal societies produce many children and are sustainable, even if progressives believe them to be unfair. The future belongs to those who breed.
Ew dude, take your gross breeder crap so where else.
The person you responded to didn't advocate for any particular scenario, they're simply saying what they think will happen. They're describing what sounds like a plausible scenario on the surface, and I say this as a progressive, happily child free person.
To take it to an extreme, the (satirical) movie Idiocracy plays out this scenario.
Your emotive reaction doesn’t disprove anything I said. If OP dislikes it, she can block me.
And your pretend neutrality doesn't prove anything. If you don't want me to call you out for being a forced breeder creep then block me
I’m not advocating forced breeding, your accusation is unhinged and unproven. Me pointing out progressives societies have terrible birth rates compared with religious ones isn’t advocating for forcing breeding. It’s simply observing that one will outlast the other. This isn’t that hard to figure out.
You need young bodies to support the pension system, the infrastructure, and to go to war.
1. None of those things are exclusive to an exploitative patriarchal society 2. Maybe we shouldn't be building our society around ensuring we have enough bodies to use as fodder for war? What a great example of patriarchal thinking!
Which means that all societies need to ensure consant population growth to sustain themselves.
You don't have to prepare for war, other side will and then will have a guaranteed victory. I am sure they will treat you nicely.
Thank you Celeste for this fabulous essay. I will bookmark it and share it widely.
During conversations regarding patriarchy my 16-year-old son has said things recently like "guys like me", which makes me sad because while I want him to possess an awareness of this system, I don't want him to internalize it as feeling like he's automatically part of the problem for being born with XY chromosomes. My son is kind, thoughtful, sensitive and as long as he remains open to striving for equality, accountability, and empathy, he will remain on a path towards equality outside of the system that tells him he must be masculine and unfeeling and entitled.
Ultimately, we are all victimized by this system, but can choose to educate ourselves about the system, self-reflect on the ways it has affected us, and then determine how to use our words and actions to help dismantle a harmful system (or to strengthen it). I am currently seeking more male role models for my son who also has lost his father figure (not because of courts, and not because of his mother's actions, but because of his father's decision to not participate in his life or prioritize him).
I'm hopeful that my ability to speak more plainly about the ways that patriarchy harmed me and my marriage and what I'm doing about it now will help both my daughter and my son to navigate these times with more awareness than I had at their age. The sad thing is that misogyny and patriarchal programming are mainly perpetuated in the privacy of the family home, behind closed doors where it's challenging to address directly.
You've done a great job in this article getting to the root of the issue and I am much appreciative of your work Celeste!
I feel your pain, sister. But on the flipside. My ex convinced me we were coparenting well enough together that he essentially weed me out of my son’s lives in order to gain full custody, attempt to sue me for a measly 25% of my income when he’s a multimillionaire and of course stop paying me any child support that it would allow me the cushion. I need to even be able to show up in my boys lives. I’m about to share my personal deconstruction journey out of that toxic marriage and religion on my channel over on YouTube. You can go to my sub stack if you’re interested, which is Deconstructing Patriarchy but you probably can get to it through my profile pic. All the links in there are in that pinned post at the top.
Yes I’ve adored Celeste’s work around this topic and really want to send my boys a lot of this, but I still have to be ultra careful since they live full-time in his home. And I don’t have a super connected relationship because of all of that.
Oh course I am grateful for this post. I have been trying to do this for more than a decade. I hope others join us. niobe-way.com
What an honor to see you in my comment section Niobe ❤️❤️
If you guys want actual data with actual solutions on why boys and men are falling behind- reading Niobe’s book Rebel With a Cause- reimagining boys, ourselves and our culture: https://a.co/d/767nbA4
Interview with breaking down patriarchy?
Loved your book!! 🩷
This looks phenomenal. Question as I look at your FAQs, do you take into consideration the creation of patriarchy by Gerda learner or any of that type of work? That that’s the Root problem of all of us and until we identify the ideology of patriarchy that got ruined into our psyche’s 6000 years ago we won’t be able to undo it?
You seem very enthusiastic and I'd encourage you to read more of Celeste's work before asking these kinds of questions; you'll find plenty of answers in what she has already written and collaborated on. She is well-read in feminist literature.
This question wasn't for Celeste's work. I can absolutely tell she has read this info and uses it in her work as I do in mine. This was for Niobe Way's book
Spot on, but here's the rub: Even the mention of the word "patriarchy" is enough to shut a lot of men (and women) down. They don't know what it means other than surrendering their place at the top of the hierarchy/caste. The notion that there might be something beyond hierarchical culture is beyond them.
Yes yes Diane. The word feels like a deal breaker in movement making. An ambiguous enemy is tougher to fight. I’ve been thinking a lot lately about how do we galvanize people around something as abstract as a system? I’m personally glad this Reeves doesn’t use the term. It’s far better he reach more and use stories to demonstrate without dividing.
"I’ve been thinking a lot lately about how do we galvanize people around something as abstract as a system" -- I'm too tired at this point to suggest anything - been at it on and off most of my life. If you come up with anything, let me know.
Oh gosh I’m just an amateur considering the problems of pros for the love of it. I hope you didn’t take that as diminishing. It’s admiration. I’m so glad to know of you and your work now.
Not at all, friend. Not at all. Carry on.
Brilliant as usual! You explain the reasons behind my struggles with men, and the frustrations of so many young people today. May your message travel far and wide because we need your bridge building insights to get us through the current mess.
Hey Karin, not sure if you found my work on Deconstructing Patriarchy. But this is basically all I talk about is the idea ideology of patriarchy and how it has warmed its way into our psyche and become a chronic disease. I help people see that expose it and remove it and create something new at the same time.
I highly suggest reading Richard Reeves' article "Why Men Are Hard to Help" if you haven't already.
https://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/why-men-are-hard-to-help
It confirmed what I already knew, which is that young men are falling behind and being outpaced by young women bc of their lack of motivation, not bc they're "being left behind," but the article opened my eyes even more. We can/do offer men all the help they say they want and don't get, but many won't/don't take it. This lack of motivation, and often plain refusal, to put in the work for what they want also applies to relationships with women, not just work and educational opportunities. There's a very obvious sense of entitlement to have a woman in their life when I see/hear men talk about being lonely; if they really want it, they're supposed to have it.
This difference in young men & women is something I see a play out in my own house with my 24 yo daughter and 25 yo stepson. My daughter has worked since she was 16, currently works 2 jobs to save money to move back out, and pays all her own bills. My stepson on the other hand is 25 and has only had 1 job for 2 years (he got at 18) and 1 job for 3 weeks. Scott G says a relationship/sex with a woman is the only thing that motivates men to act like responsible adults, but even that doesn't always work anymore. Stepson lived with a gf, who he was totally in love with, for 1 year before she ended things bc she was tired of working all day while he sat home. So MANY women of all ages have dealt with the same thing and realized it's better to be single than to be a mother to a man who's supposed to be a partner.
I suspect easily accessible pornography doesn't help much with the motivation and drive aspects for young men. And they're exposed before their brains are mature enough to think critically about what they're consuming. It's grooming and setting them up for relationship (and sometimes life) failure.
“Patriarchy hurts women AND patriarchy hurts men and we can have compassion for both.”
This absolutely encapsulates the stance that's needed for genuine, deep, lasting change. The progressive wing of the men's movement in the 1980's and 90's ended up largely eclipsed by the binary thinking you're critiquing. When men look with clarity at the havoc patriarchy has wrought, in the lives of women but also in our own, then the world can change.
So well, said David. If you haven’t seen my work on Deconstructing Patriarchy, I think he would enjoy it. I talk all about deconstructing the ideology of patriarchy which harms all of us in different ways
I would advise everyone to NOT take this statistics on male loneliness at face value. There is just a HUGE amount of context that is missing and which is giving a chance to give a spin that turns women into villains and men into victims. That simply is not reality.
I collected a lot of research around this topic that clarifies many of the misconceptions: https://erikexamines.substack.com/p/research-on-dating-and-gender-equality
For instance swipe rate means very little in real life. That is not representative of the degree to which men and women hook up. This kind of analysis is deeply skewed because it ignored that far more men use dating apps than women. It ignores the general usage of dating apps is not as high as one thinks. It also looks at behavior on the computer rather than what men and women end up agreeing in the real physical world. Hint, it is nothing as bad as it seems.
Also in this somewhat provocative article I wrote, I link to some of the research suggesting this issue is grossly exaggerated: https://erikexamines.substack.com/p/what-if-male-loneliness-is-a-good
Finally we must stop this silly game of trying to determine WHICH gender is most at fault. Reality is that this development is far more a consequence of technological change than specific change in each gender. If we want to fix these issues start by regulating technology rather than impose particular behavior and lifestyles on particular genders.
It is popular to blame feminism but as a Scandinavian we have been through this kind of change decades longer than the US, and we do not have the same issues. In fact conflicts between gender is likely much lower here than in more traditional societies. Read up on South Korea for instance where it is getting very extreme.
I lived in the US 20 years ago, and my take would be that the US still has a long way to go gender equality and that is actually a strong contributor to many of the issues American men face today. We have long had many divorces and out of wedlock births in the Nordic region but thanks to a well built out welfare system that has not stopped men from being very actively involved in raising children. Who generally push for these kinds of welfare services? That is women! So people need to stop making women the chief problem. They are not.
Amen!! Thanks so much for pointing us to your work Erik! So important!
I think I need a Nordic man 😆
Hehe depends on what you are looking for. Nordics is big on gender equality, but that can have pros and cons judging from what I see American women comment on sometimes online. Like the whole thing of the man picking you up, paying the whole dinner on a date, is much less a thing here. Women earn closer to men, but that has the flip side expectation of much more sharing of bills and expenses. On the other hand men are also more expected to contribute at home with child care, house work etc.
I joke that Nordics is a bit like the hobbit shire. People are really into the ordinary life. I know really ambitious people who want to make rapid careers and make lots of money are less satisfied with Nordic society because Nordic is more work-life balance oriented society. Like your boss will come tell you that you ought to take some time off if you are working too long days.
I have rarely been with a man who pays for my dinner, and never been with one who pays for my vacation, or for my car or my home. I am the opposite of spoiled. I have had to fight my own battles and I barely know what it is like for a man to have my back. I experienced it ONCE when I lived in the Middle East. I am sure I'd be content in the Nordic world except for the fact that I would not know the language. (By the way, I've been living in Italy for the past eight years and have also lived in India and Qatar. I am not very American.)
Wow, but language is no issue here. Everyone speaks English. I got American friends here who lived here for over a decade and still can hardly say more than two three words.
Learning the local language is of course a bonus. It makes it easier to blend into the culture but it not a requirement.
Well, yes, you guys and gals are great with learning other languages. And while I "could" live there and use only my own language, it would not be my first choice. In Italy, I speak Italian and honestly, I'd hate to be one of those Americans who lives in Italy for decades and never learns the language. But luckily I learned it in my twenties when it was easier. Now, in my fifties, (with much more "life exhaustion") I am not sure I could properly tackle a Nordic language.😟 Italy is a beautiful country and has all the art and history I love, but the men SUCK. They are VERY sexist. I mean seriously, you would not believe my experiences. And the few that are decent and not sexist are taken, of course!
So, the Americans you know there, what kind of visa do they have? Are they married to locals?
I am very thankful to see you talk about Scott Galloway. After I came across his viral TED talk video, I followed him, but there was something about him that I felt was quite wrong. He seems liberal and seems to care about "MEN," but listening to him as a young woman, I don't want my boyfriend or my brother to listen to him. Until I realize that he is "fighting against patriarchy" with a different version of patriarchy; this became so apparent when he talks about women being too picky on the dating apps while neglecting the facts that women pay more price or even their life, if they are too generous with the literal strangers on the internet. And why does he have to use "coffee" to refer to a woman?!!!
Unfortunately, plenty of leftist men are raised in the same misogyny right-wing men are. Andrea Dworkin said it well: "To right-wing men, we are private property. To left-wing men, we are public property." Obligatory "not all men" here; some are really doing the work and see our humanity. But many don't want to change the existing hierarchies of patriarchy and capitalism (including gender), only their personal place in it.
"What are your thoughts on the male loneliness epidemic? What did I leave out? Are you concerned about it? Are you not? Are you tired of talking about it? Let us know."
Oh, Celeste. Whenever I imagine your collective illusion-destroying fire couldn't get any hotter, you prove me so happily wrong🔥👏🏻
What I know in every cell of my healing being is that non-duality--the coming home to our brutiful human Paradox--IS healing. Seems to me that's what this article and the heart of work is all about. And that's why I love you; you're a healer.
What I would add to this--as both a victim of extremely violent misogynistic child abuse AND the mother of a middle school son whom I love more than anything in the universe--is that there is a dualistic notion that needs further dismantling hidden in the idea that any of us can change systems before we heal our Selves.
Patriarchy is one of many forms of TRAUMA, which underlies every single problem threatening our entire species today. Domination is trauma's food. Patriarchy feeds it; capitalism feeds it; all dualistic notions of fighting for good/bad/right/wrong feeds it. Addiction, disease, and loneliness: these are all symptoms of our collective disease. Treating symptoms doesn't heal root causes (I know you know this!).
The most confusing and counterintuitive aspect of healing is that we cannot get there (to healing) without first being here (victims). Both women and men are absolutely victims of domination indoctrination. Just like children of abuse believe they are the problem because it seems so much safer to believe we can change ourselves than our parents, we've been assuming we the humans are the problem (kind of like brothers versus sisters, fighting/blaming each other instead of helping each other escape our abusive and neglectful "home").
I'm really hopeful about the future because I know the fact we are finally letting ourselves feel the anger and grief of our collective abuse under systems of violence and domination is an indication we're finally on the path to healing it. It sucks when we're in the middle of it, but we gotta let ourselves feel like victims before we can stop blaming ourselves and each other. Once we fully feel the losses of our humanity under domination, we can and will grow up enough to build something human again; something entirely removed from domination's patriarchal cage.
As a young man myself, the section on seeing your kids transition from innocence to be victims to the patriarchy hit me particularly strongly. I wonder how I have been subtly influenced as I have grown up, and what I can do to be a force of happiness for not only the men and women in my life but for all. Great read!
Empathy and being able to hear someone out and admit when you have been wrong is tantamount for ALL OF US to be a force for happiness in each other's lives. Happiness requires acknowledging and processing unhappiness together.
Isn’t it ironic that men who hate feminists because “they blame everything on men,” also want to blame everything on women?
That aside, I wholeheartedly agree with your arguments for less dualistic thinking about these complex issues.
I’ve been a huge proponent of Terry Real for years because of the way he holds men to account with love and helps women do what you are suggesting: to empathize with male loneliness et al, but remember it isn’t their responsibility to do the emotional labor for them.
My approach to feminism and towards men is similar, to remember that feminism and matriarchy are liberation for all, but not responsibility for the work of all— after all we’ve already been doing that since humans evolved. That is to mean, instead of denying men’s pain because of the current fighting between gender, we acknowledge and then point to the systems they haven’t had to notice as the root.