This is so true. The best explanation of this (in my opinion) is from Marilyn Frye: “To say that straight men are heterosexual is only to say that they engage in sex (f*cking) exclusively with the other sex, i.e., women. All or almost all of that which pertains to love, most straight men reserve exclusively for other men. The people whom they admire, respect, adore, revere, honor, whom they imitate, idolize, and form profound attachments to, whom they are willing to teach and from whom they are willing to learn, and whose respect, admiration, recognition, honor, reverence and love they desire… those are, overwhelmingly, other men. In their relations with women, what passes for respect is kindness, generosity or paternalism; what passes for honor is removal to the pedestal. From women they want devotion, service and sex. Heterosexual male culture is homoerotic; it is man-loving.”
I was born in the 60’s so I’m definitely not new to this concept and I’ve fallen victim to being disregarded by men more often than I care to remember. I’ve never really thought about it in the context of Men that like women and men that don’t, but it makes perfect sense. I’ve seen women gain more rights, higher wages and higher paying jobs. Now the powers that be are trying to push us back because of toxic masculinity and rampant male insecurity. New mothers take heed and raise your sons to realize that tears are not a sign of weakness but a natural empowering aspect of being human.
Trust me, without the tears or the readiness to shed it, men will actually be even less compassionate towards women as they are definitely less so with other men. Tears is a powerful and complementary evolutionary mechanism that triggers the protective and sympathetic feelings in men towards women. It's why men don't act protectively or sympathetically towards other men. Remove the capacity of a woman to be teary and you dull the feelings of men towards them even more.
Absolutely. I’ve noticed this for years, but not as completely nor as articulately as you have.
I worked in a graduate program for many years. Next to my office was a doctoral student who was short, balding, and not built like a jock. And yet, he constantly had women (other graduate students, from our program and from others) coming by to chat, set up coffee “dates”, plans to get pizza, etc. Many of the other, mostly male, students would ask me how this guy was attending all the women? I had observed this for several months and answered “He really *likes* women.” “Well, I like women!” “Do you spend any time with women other than working on a project or trying to score?” “Umm, I’m really too busy for that…”. I forbore from pointing out the time I could see them spending with other guys, and the remarks I’d heard about “how lucky so-and-so was: he didn’t have any women on his work team for X class.”
Heavy comment about straight men reserving “love” for the men they respect. I can say, that’s a curious thing.
Had some male friends I considered friends, broke my hip at a skatepark and over the year plus recovery with two surgeries not one male friend showed up. My wife’s friends showed up; for her, knowing I was broken. No men.
Then while I was recovering I read The New Fatherhood’s article on Male Friendship Recession. That hit the soul.
Also worth saying that many women reward men for bad behaviour. So until we universally put our collective feet down and say it’s not good enough than there’s not much incentive for men to change.
We should treat everyone with respect and want good for them
It is true it is easier to like women who act like women
Than to like men who act like women
In both cases like is not the key
The key is to want good and pursue good for everyone regardless of liking them.
Like is a feeling and feelings are an unreliable way to build and judge relationships.
And
If you want good for anyone you should be willing to have the discipline to listen and engage with them. To put them in a box makes it impossible to find the good for or in anyone.
Suck up your uncomfortable feelings and choose the good as your compass.
It sounds to me like you are quoting a doctrine that in general I would agree with, but I must point out that, were you engaging in real dialogue, opening with “sadly deficient in reason” (on the author’s front porch, no less) would convince me that you were not so much examining the question as defending yourself. I fear you are proving her point. Tone deaf, at the very least.
Your dislike of women is plain to see. If a man is incapable of asking a woman at work "would you like to meet for a coffee sometime?" without it sounding like an assault, that is not the woman's fault.
And by extension, that man-loving-ness of het male culture becomes narcissism. No one worships a (het male) hero like a man. Patriarchal religions took root and have endured because of this.
I can vouch for this as someone who lived and worked in high-end restaurants in NYC for many years. Eating and drinking and spending money in public to do this gives you a lot of insight into people in general. I was especially fascinated in a highway-crash-witness way with male-only tables, and how utterly homosexualized much of the interaction was, from ordering the wines with the highest scores and prices, the choicest cuts of meat, and so on. Easy and a bit obvious, perhaps, but if I had a twenty for every time a guy said, "What are you, a girl?" when another male ordered a drink that didn't perform as a male choice, I might have doubled my tips. More finely, the longer the dinners went on, the more I realized that these men were not in a hurry to leave, get home, go on to more diversified company; they were too content rutting around in a white linen-and-fine-china-plated capitalist homosexual orgy where everyone treated them like the "studs" they thought themselves and only wanted to be with each other.
I'll leave it to the women in my life to say whether I like women, based on my behaviour. But I can say that one of the first things I noticed coming into adolescence was how many boys actively disliked girls, even as they desired them. In grade 6 I played "elastics" (they had this enormous rubber band they'd stretch between two kids while others did jumps in and out, twisting in and around) with the girls, and the boys started calling me a "poofter". Meanwhile they were playing football and regularly embracing other boys... even at 11 years old I knew this was weird.
When I came across this quote, it changed my life. I'm not kidding. It felt like my world just crumbled and I needed to rebuild, because everything about that quote makes so much sense!
I feel I have been hit by a ton of bricks filled with truths I have been avoiding for my entire life. My wall of self protection is in pieces and I need to face the facts I have been allowing the men in my life too much forgiveness for behaviors I suddenly understand in a new light. Thank you.
Also, women get social capital and success by not liking women as well. Like being a guys girl gets you in good with the guys. Tolerating sexist remarks, laughing at horrible jokes, etc. But it only works for so long and it won’t protect you ultimately.
Yes! This was my thought too! Men don’t suffer consequences for disliking women and women gain favor for disliking women. It’s awful. I started understanding this two years ago when my youngest daughter was starting puberty and hating herself for it. It didn’t take long in our first conversation for me to see why. It wasn’t cool to like women and becoming one was terrifying for her. I have tried to be more vocal in my support for women ever since. I don’t want social clout for hating women. We are actively teaching our kids that women are awesome, we respect and support them!
Not true at all. Here's another perspective: nobody hates women like other women. All the social capital and etiquette garb worn by women is to protect reputation in front of other women. All the tomboy's in my life tell me about the nightmarish gossip and cruelty other women spray on them. You think a man cares about you holding a Prada or a jute bag? No, but other women do.
Yes, women can be vicious to each other. But like in all areas of life, we get to choose. I choose people to be in my life who care about what really matters. My female friends don't care if I have a handbag or just carry my phone and keys in my pockets.
THIS is such an important point. I was trying to think of the reverse of Celeste’s point. Like if women have to like men to be revered/regarded well in society, and I’d argue the answer is yes, to be liked by both men and women, women must seem like the like/respect men. If women come off like they don’t like men, many men will automatically disregard them as being a male hater and go on the defense. She doesn’t like me so why would I like her?
OMG. How true?!! I thought I was the only woman who noticed this problematic issue.
An angry, belligerent reichwing lawyer in the late 70s, Phyllis Schlafly, rallied CONservatives and all media to magnify her protest against passing The Equal Rights Amendment for WOMEN.
I’ve been thinking about this exact topic a lot lately. My soon-to-be-ex husband does not like women. It’s crazy how in such a complicated, nuanced world, this particular measure of human nature is so stark, a “yes” or “no” with few caveats. When mentally surveying the men in my life, my intuition gives me the answer almost immediately. From a practical standpoint, as I re-enter singledom after a 20 year hiatus, this will be criterion numero uno when sizing up a potential date or lover. (As in yes, must like women).
Yes, yes!! One of the biggest green flags I clocked when dating my husband was that he had multiple platonic friendships with both straight and gay women, even while working in a male-dominated field.
Caroline, to your point about your husband working in a male-dominated field: my (ex) husband works in a creative field with many women colleagues. Meanwhile, one of the most “women-liking” guys I know by far, my friend’s husband, is a men’s college basketball coach (and I'll add comes from a family with very traditional gender roles).
I’m not sure how to articulate this, but it’s almost like a man’s for predilection for women (in this sense) is this intrinsic, almost spiritual part of their nature that transcends profession, interests, upbringing, etc. , at least in some instances. (But I'm also also not saying that men/people can't change. But to start, they have to want to. . . )
Big Ben Roethlisberger raped a woman. No consequence, right? Kobe Bryant, raped a woman. No consequence, right? Cuz these boys were he-men on the field and court and, godammit sports is IMPORTANT! So many others. What's your take?
lol, yes, that’s a better way of putting it! But when we generally (ie as a society) talk a man’s character in relation to how he treats/relates to women, I don’t think what we’re discussing here is really considered. But it should be!
Yes, I think that being a generally respectful, polite person is how society sees it. Or, sometimes the standard is even lower, and society judges a person not being violent as good enough to be considered of good character. Is that what you mean?
Powerful piece. This totally captures how you know: "It’s in the listening, the curiosity, the respect. It’s in the eye contact. It’s how they speak of other women or speak over women. It’s whether or not they ever read women authors, listen to podcasts hosted by women." And yes, so much about performing dominance until you don't know you're performing it anymore.
Sort of related... Plenty of kids movies/books/shows are coded "gender neutral" and feature a leading male character. I struggle to think of any that feature a leading female character. The fact that a story is "about a girl" automatically makes it "not for boys"
YESSSSS!!!! I notice this all the time!! Every Disney movie- it’s either marketed as for everyone with a male protagonist or only for girls with a female protagonist. And on the rare occasion there is a female protagonist- she has to be super super not feminine (turning red, girl in Wreck it Ralph, etc) We simply do not expect boys to watch ANYTHING whiffing of girly
Omg Paw Patrol. It drives me right up the wall. Yet mention it to others mothers and they don’t see it. Then realize you can’t belabour the point without coming off as weird, so you drop it and hope it sinks in later. Just maybe they will question why the lead is a little boy and the lead dog is male. Why 5/6 of the original dogs are male. Why the answer “so boys will watch it” is problematic. And how the only reason you know 1/6 is female is because she’s pink.
Indeed. My grandson loves the colour, the glitz, the glamour, the singing of the girly kids progs. I bought him two soft toys. Particular winged unicorns I knew he'd love. His father's face said all it needed to. So sad to be so blinkered.
The film industry caters to a young male audience, with its focus on comic book adaptations and superheroes, and action flicks with car chases and explosions - and a macho male starring in them.
And the producer of those comic movies and superhero flicks is a woman. The entire book publishing industry is 98% female. The majority of pop stars are female. There are more rom-coms and drama movies made each year than action movies. Television is dominated by female-centred shows. Western culture has been female focused since the early 90s.
You and your fellow travellers are tilting at windmills. That's the point. But I don't expect anyone pointing this out will stop you from continuing to battle those imaginary foes, rationality and accountability are not virtues of the feminist.
The ludicrous claim that modern culture caters to young males: Have you noticed who is the number one musical performer today? I'll give you a clue--she has a very macho boyfriend.
Korra l will give you but the main characters of Avatar are Aang, Sokka, Zuko, Airo (4 males) and Kotarra (1 female)... This is the standard paw patrol 4-1 gender "neutral" split exactly!
Aang, Sokka, Zuko (3 males), Toph & Katara (2 females), plus Suki becomes a fairly big character later on (Sokka’s girlfriend). So, almost an even split for most of the story, and an even split for the rest. Not to mention that a trio of primary antagonists (Azula, Mai, and Ty Lee) are all female. So Avatar is actually a pretty even split.
Reading this was a bit of a gut check for me as I have believed that I have genuinely liked women for the majority of my life. Now, on the other side of divorce with twin daughters and a young son, I hope I do better. Divorce from the patriarchy and church I hope brings a new and better horizon. Thank you for sharing this timely and much needed essay with all of us.
Here's my short list for spotting a man who likes women:
1) Has female friends.
2) Speaks positively about the contributions and skills of female colleagues. This is especially true if they're older women.
3) Will earnestly challenge a woman if he disagrees with her. This is not done in a domineering way, but the expectation that a woman can defend her ideas.
4) He will apologize to a women when he's in the wrong or has made a mistake.
5) He notices when women are being treated unfairly.
This prompted me to make a mental inventory of all the men I’ve known, and to consider the impact of culture — regional, ethnic and professional. By far the highest number of “men who like women,” I’ve found, are in the teaching profession. (Not all, but a plurality.) I wonder — does it attract men who are already comfortable functioning in what amounts to a matriarchy, and/or does it come over time through collaborating closely with so many women who are comfortable commanding a room (or a whole building) on the daily?
Celeste!!! Anne Helen Peterson's essay blew my mind, and now you've blown it again. I am so profoundly sad to read this and recognize some of my core experiences:
"They get to proudly wear that title of “good” man WHILE not respecting women, not listening to women, not liking women. Treating women like an equal is not a requirement for being a good man."
I remember talking to my parents as a 10- or 12-year-old, and explaining how one of my friends (a boy) was now incessantly teasing me, insulting me, and putting me down. I was upset at the verbal bullying, but since we had been good friend before, I also felt deeply betrayed. Their response was,
"No, he's a good kid."
It was then that I realized what you've said here: that if my family/community thought well of a boy or man, none of my experiences with him would affect that. This was confirmed over the years, but in no instance was it any less devastating.
That reminds me of Jr High where the boys were following me and throwing apple cores, cookies and trying to trip me. My Mother explained that it was a sign that they liked me. I insisted that they hated me. I had read about the Witch Trials and felt like I was being pelted by refuse by the fearful men. I was right. She was wrong. A large segment of the male population do not like women.
Right?? I still don't understand if people *actually think* that that's how kids express affection, or if it's just what people say to try to make victims feel better about themselves. Either way, it's totally messed up.
Thank you so much for your comment. The particulars are different, but I definitely share that same experience of being deeply hurt and betrayed as a child. First by my "best friend's" bigotry and derogatory remarks. Second by my folks' utter dismissal of my reality.
It’s disheartening and crazy making when our reality is dismissed or denied and has a long term impact on our/girls’ ability to trust our gut. And it’s incredibly confusing when innocent questions girls ask about the gender imbalance or erasure of women is responded to with “that’s just the way it is” or “it’s tradition.” That is why I wrote my Sexism & Sensibility — to put an end to the denial, and address gender bias and sexism directly with girls!!
Woah! This is so good! It explains why I tried to take on interests and attitudes that were masculine from when I was a teen. It feels a little harder for me to evaluate the men in my life because I work in a very male-dominated field and so I feel like I don’t have enough data: is he not reading women because he doesn’t like women or because there just aren’t many who’ve written in this subject? Does he not listen to women, or is it just me? When the whole system doesn’t like women, it’s hard to evaluate the individual men!
Oh totally and when a lack of female representation is just the air you breathe- it’s so much harder for men to self evaluate or even notice if they treat women differently
Somewhat related to this it made me think about men in the church specifically. I tend to believe (and it seems like you’d agree) men are socialized to not like women. Are men who are raised in a patriarchal church at a disadvantage? From infancy basically in the Mormon church they only see men on the stand, men passing the sacrament, men as authority and worth listening to. Is it any wonder a man thought women’s talks in GC were for naps and snacks? It makes me so angry when I see men who leave the church but don’t even bother touching their internalized misogyny in their deconstruction.
I think you nailed it, Celeste. The men who are not conscious of the way they’re treating women is only a mirror of our society as a whole, where most of us have our heads in the sand. I think the majority of us think that if they don’t see it, it’s not happening and they would rather dig themselves a hole and climb in, then be conscious, aware and self-empowered.
I also work in a male-dominated field, and I think one of the realizations I have had recently is how many men are attracted to this field BECAUSE they don’t like women. The lack of women around them isn’t a drawback or a problem to be solved, it’s a perk. I know this isn’t everyone (I have also worked with men who like women, and it makes a huge difference), but I have found myself asking a lot fewer “is it just me?” questions recently, because no, it’s not just me. It’s much too common to be just me! Realizing this is both depressing and liberating, because I don’t have to keep trying so hard to make up for a problem I can’t fix.
Wow. First the article, then the comments. Revelation after revelation. I never thought of any of this. I just couldn’t manage working as a female engineer. I was miserable. I didn’t realize… I wasn’t liked. But it hangs together. Why women were let go so frequently. Why we and our close male friends always “under performed” no matter how well we did. Why no effort was made to combat the sexism. I understood it was sexism making my life hell at the end of my short career, but I never thought of it in terms of “like”. And as if the article wasn’t enough (and it was!), comments like yours have nailed it home personally. Wow.
Yes! It sounds like you and I have had some similar experiences here. I am in my 8th year as a software engineer working in tech, and I’m just about ready to give up and move on. Until it became extremely obvious at my current job, I’m not sure I had words for why I kept facing all this subtle resistance that my male coworkers didn’t seem to run into. One of the experiences they cemented this for me was announcing my pregnancy/upcoming maternity leave to my team last month. My male teammates just stared at me and didn’t say anything about it, and then were like “okay… moving on!” It was extremely awkward, and when I talked to a friend about it, she was like “well clearly they just don’t like you! Someone who cared about your experience would have at least said congratulations!” MIND BLOWN MOMENT. It also explains these attitudes are so hard to do anything about, because what am I supposed to do about it? Go to the men up my management chain and tell them my coworkers don’t like me? I’m not sure they would even know what to do with that!
Very similar! I’m sorry you are going through that. It is brutal and revelatory and validating and crushing all at once.
I couldn’t really believe I was actually being discriminated against (“subtle resistance” - damn so true - and impossible to explain in a way that gets taken seriously even by yourself!) until just days before I was called down to a meeting room and knew exactly what was happening.
I ran into my ex-boss and two ex-coworkers the other day and was puzzled that the ex-coworkers talked to me while my boss literally turned his back to me and ignored me. Surely he doesn’t feel guilty? Does he blame me? Do I make him uncomfortable? Oh. He doesn’t like me. And the other two genuinely do. That tracks.
You can’t make them like you. Even if it was possible to make a valid complaint, no amount of sensitivity training will make them like you. But you can get out before you cease to like yourself.
(Damn but it all makes sense now! Like why sensitivity training doesn’t work. Surely learning helps, but not if the real problem is dislike. Mind blown again!)
“You can’t make them like you. Even if it was possible to make a valid complaint, no amount of sensitivity training will make them like you. But you can get out before you cease to like yourself.” 🔥🔥🔥
BRB, I’m going to put this on post-it note on my bathroom mirror.
I have followed this discussion between the two of you with such interest as the revelations unfold. How can one do anything with such subtle discrimination as that? It’s impossible. So you cope with working with a bunch of people who don’t like you or you leave and the environment never gets any easier. How can equality of opportunity ever come into being?
Wow yes! This is quite specific, but I remember noticing when I was younger and in a Catholic setting that many of the priests or young men who aspired to be priests seemed to feel incredibly awkward around women, and wondering if that was the reason they chose the priesthood in the first place.
Oh yes there is so much to say about this in religious communities as well. I grew up evangelical, and men in my church were specifically taught to only listen to other men. I suspect that many men were drawn to this church tradition because it freed them from the need to treat women as equals.
Spot on! This was definitely a trait I was looking for in a spouse, but maybe couldn’t define so clearly. Thank god he does since we’ve had three daughters. And once we had those babies, we realized the church didn’t like woman. “And for those reasons, I’m out.” 😂
Most Churches do not like women and the Bible was written by misogynist men who were eliminating the women Priestesses, Goddesses and even their God's wife from the Sumerian texts that they were plagiarizing. History is interesting as long as you realize that it was His Story.
Reading your comment, I just realized that the church I grew up in, Christian Science, actually liked women. Sunday services felt like a very feminine atmosphere -- few men attended, and the ones who did would not be considered masculine by today's standards. Maybe that's one reason (besides the whole doctor thing) CS has been vilified. I quit the church at 16 when I stopped believing the doctrine, but it was good to grow up feeling that being female was valued, at least on Sundays.
I started reading and stopped breathing somewhere along the way because this is all so true. You burned the house down, Celeste. There are only a few men left standing. But you know what? Even if it doesn’t matter to them, I don’t have time for men who don’t like women. Or women who don’t like women. So let it all burn. Those of us who appreciate and respect women are having a better time. I’m sure of it.
Yes, we who enjoy close women friends absolutely are blessed. I adore my women friends and I also love men. Is there a term for that kind of like ambidextrous? 😂
Celeste, I really liked this post. As I man—a man who grew up in the U.S., a man who likes women—I see the things you say here as almost obviously true, and it makes me terribly sad to realize that women don’t know this already. But I’d like to add that the U.S. is a county with an especially macho culture, at least in part (look at the 30 million MAGA people). I left the U.S. for Europe many years ago, and while no society is perfect, I have always felt much freer to openly like women here. I hope and pray that the tide of culture will change one day in my native country.
I notice a difference as well! It varies a lot country to country and culture to culture- but there is a tangible difference in every day interactions with men- depending on what country you are in.
Yes, and of course, there are different cultures in a country the size of the USA. One of my most perplexing experiences growing up there, as the son of a very independent and admirable single mother, was being confronted with the misogyny that was so pervasive in the culture around me. Now I think that misogyny has gotten much weaker in some parts of the country and much stronger in others. Honestly, Trump and his people are pushing nothing so much as a campaign to denigrate and disempower women, and it saddens me that that message has garnered so much support.
This isn't new to CONservatives, reichwing tribe, at all. I was brought up to atleast be cognizant of politics even if I didn't vote (shame on me.) I was in my late teens, then.
I noticed in the 70s, an obnoxious, aggressive CONservative, reichwing lawyer named Phyllis Schlafly, rallied all media with all of her party behind her to stop The Equal Rights Amendment FOR women.
“ ‘Father Knows Best’, mom-is-subservient,” messaging was the trademark of all Republicans, CONservatives then and it's the same today, but with their misogyny off the hook now because their cult leader is.
I really appreciate what you said here Gregory. I'd be interested to hear more about your life in Portugal. I've lived in Italy on and off for many years.
Thanks, Chandi! My new Substack, Living Elsewhere, will be launching in a few days, so please feel free to check it out and see my take on what it's like living on this side of the Pond. (I'll write a bit about Italy too, though I've lived there much less. I will definitely check out what you have to say about life there.)
Great article, Celeste. I like women! At least I hope I am doing all the things that men do that like women. Honestly I have always preferred the company of women over men. Seems like I can have deeper conversations with women and I just enjoy being around them over men. Your article serves as a good reminder to keep working on doing the things that men do that like women. Thank you.
Steve the fact that you regularly read, support and thoughtfully comment on a feminist newsletter is a strong indicator that you are a women liker 😊😊🙌🙌
How interesting, Steve! It seems that almost every single one of my male friends have confided in me that they feel closer with women and that guys don’t respect their sensitive side.
I will have to reflect more about whether or not the men in my life like women. But roughly 80% of the men I encountered at the grocery store today certainly don’t respect women. When I encountered men in the aisles, 8 out of the 10 expected me to move out of their way. I know this isn’t new, but it was especially apparent today. Gross.
I periodically run an experiment: I refuse to move out of the way of young boys and men. The look on their faces as I stop and wait for them to move around me is always interesting.
I do this with young boys and men so they don’t get comfortable with walking where they want. I’m a crone, dammit! Have some respect and move out of MY way.
I do the same thing, except with all men, young or old. It’s a work in progress, but I’m being mindful of how often I defer to men as an automatic response. I’m 55 and I’m over kowtowing to men just because. It’s not dominance I seek. I’m tired of twisting myself into knots and making myself as small and invisible as possible - rejecting myself in the process - in the clearly unsuccessful attempt to be likable or not viewed as a b, particularly by men.
This is so true. The best explanation of this (in my opinion) is from Marilyn Frye: “To say that straight men are heterosexual is only to say that they engage in sex (f*cking) exclusively with the other sex, i.e., women. All or almost all of that which pertains to love, most straight men reserve exclusively for other men. The people whom they admire, respect, adore, revere, honor, whom they imitate, idolize, and form profound attachments to, whom they are willing to teach and from whom they are willing to learn, and whose respect, admiration, recognition, honor, reverence and love they desire… those are, overwhelmingly, other men. In their relations with women, what passes for respect is kindness, generosity or paternalism; what passes for honor is removal to the pedestal. From women they want devotion, service and sex. Heterosexual male culture is homoerotic; it is man-loving.”
Whooooa! NAILED IT! What a perfect quote- thank you so much for sharing! 👏👏👏
I was born in the 60’s so I’m definitely not new to this concept and I’ve fallen victim to being disregarded by men more often than I care to remember. I’ve never really thought about it in the context of Men that like women and men that don’t, but it makes perfect sense. I’ve seen women gain more rights, higher wages and higher paying jobs. Now the powers that be are trying to push us back because of toxic masculinity and rampant male insecurity. New mothers take heed and raise your sons to realize that tears are not a sign of weakness but a natural empowering aspect of being human.
I agree - also we need to start putting the raising of good men on MEN'S shoulders, not just women. Mothers carry enough already.
Well said.
Here here!….
Trust me, without the tears or the readiness to shed it, men will actually be even less compassionate towards women as they are definitely less so with other men. Tears is a powerful and complementary evolutionary mechanism that triggers the protective and sympathetic feelings in men towards women. It's why men don't act protectively or sympathetically towards other men. Remove the capacity of a woman to be teary and you dull the feelings of men towards them even more.
Absolutely. I’ve noticed this for years, but not as completely nor as articulately as you have.
I worked in a graduate program for many years. Next to my office was a doctoral student who was short, balding, and not built like a jock. And yet, he constantly had women (other graduate students, from our program and from others) coming by to chat, set up coffee “dates”, plans to get pizza, etc. Many of the other, mostly male, students would ask me how this guy was attending all the women? I had observed this for several months and answered “He really *likes* women.” “Well, I like women!” “Do you spend any time with women other than working on a project or trying to score?” “Umm, I’m really too busy for that…”. I forbore from pointing out the time I could see them spending with other guys, and the remarks I’d heard about “how lucky so-and-so was: he didn’t have any women on his work team for X class.”
heavy article to contemplate
Heavy comment about straight men reserving “love” for the men they respect. I can say, that’s a curious thing.
Had some male friends I considered friends, broke my hip at a skatepark and over the year plus recovery with two surgeries not one male friend showed up. My wife’s friends showed up; for her, knowing I was broken. No men.
Then while I was recovering I read The New Fatherhood’s article on Male Friendship Recession. That hit the soul.
https://www.thenewfatherhood.org/p/the-male-friendship-recession
Guess I picked the wrong dudes to try and be close friends with. They are higher up in careers than I.
So sorry about your friends not showing up - that must sting.
A bit; initially a lot.
Oh this is a jaw drop moment for me. How perfectly it describes things. And how sad that it does.
Do you feel you took a lot of male relationship burdens on your shoulders that you weren’t responsible for?
Also worth saying that many women reward men for bad behaviour. So until we universally put our collective feet down and say it’s not good enough than there’s not much incentive for men to change.
Sadly deficient in reason
Women in general are quite likable
In general
We should treat everyone with respect and want good for them
It is true it is easier to like women who act like women
Than to like men who act like women
In both cases like is not the key
The key is to want good and pursue good for everyone regardless of liking them.
Like is a feeling and feelings are an unreliable way to build and judge relationships.
And
If you want good for anyone you should be willing to have the discipline to listen and engage with them. To put them in a box makes it impossible to find the good for or in anyone.
Suck up your uncomfortable feelings and choose the good as your compass.
It sounds to me like you are quoting a doctrine that in general I would agree with, but I must point out that, were you engaging in real dialogue, opening with “sadly deficient in reason” (on the author’s front porch, no less) would convince me that you were not so much examining the question as defending yourself. I fear you are proving her point. Tone deaf, at the very least.
What on earth was that word salad needed for? Just say you dislike women.
Women are likable, but men who act like women are unlikeable? Huh? Then you say not to put people in boxes.
None of that makes any sense.
I suspect you have been hurt somewhere along the line. So I’ll move on and not let your comments occupy any more of my time.
Your dislike of women is plain to see. If a man is incapable of asking a woman at work "would you like to meet for a coffee sometime?" without it sounding like an assault, that is not the woman's fault.
And by extension, that man-loving-ness of het male culture becomes narcissism. No one worships a (het male) hero like a man. Patriarchal religions took root and have endured because of this.
I can vouch for this as someone who lived and worked in high-end restaurants in NYC for many years. Eating and drinking and spending money in public to do this gives you a lot of insight into people in general. I was especially fascinated in a highway-crash-witness way with male-only tables, and how utterly homosexualized much of the interaction was, from ordering the wines with the highest scores and prices, the choicest cuts of meat, and so on. Easy and a bit obvious, perhaps, but if I had a twenty for every time a guy said, "What are you, a girl?" when another male ordered a drink that didn't perform as a male choice, I might have doubled my tips. More finely, the longer the dinners went on, the more I realized that these men were not in a hurry to leave, get home, go on to more diversified company; they were too content rutting around in a white linen-and-fine-china-plated capitalist homosexual orgy where everyone treated them like the "studs" they thought themselves and only wanted to be with each other.
That's brilliantly-put.
I'll leave it to the women in my life to say whether I like women, based on my behaviour. But I can say that one of the first things I noticed coming into adolescence was how many boys actively disliked girls, even as they desired them. In grade 6 I played "elastics" (they had this enormous rubber band they'd stretch between two kids while others did jumps in and out, twisting in and around) with the girls, and the boys started calling me a "poofter". Meanwhile they were playing football and regularly embracing other boys... even at 11 years old I knew this was weird.
When I came across this quote, it changed my life. I'm not kidding. It felt like my world just crumbled and I needed to rebuild, because everything about that quote makes so much sense!
Yes! I have often wondered about this.
Well said. I would also add the actual closet cases in Hollywood. Look no further than the roster of Scientologists. It's an open secret in Hollywood.
I feel I have been hit by a ton of bricks filled with truths I have been avoiding for my entire life. My wall of self protection is in pieces and I need to face the facts I have been allowing the men in my life too much forgiveness for behaviors I suddenly understand in a new light. Thank you.
“…from whom they are willing to learn…”
Wow, never figured it out before but that is it.
Thank you! I’ve been looking for this quote for weeks and couldn’t lay hands on it 🙏🏼
Wow, this is an AMAZING quote.
Yeah. This.
Also, women get social capital and success by not liking women as well. Like being a guys girl gets you in good with the guys. Tolerating sexist remarks, laughing at horrible jokes, etc. But it only works for so long and it won’t protect you ultimately.
Yes! Such a great point!
Yes! This was my thought too! Men don’t suffer consequences for disliking women and women gain favor for disliking women. It’s awful. I started understanding this two years ago when my youngest daughter was starting puberty and hating herself for it. It didn’t take long in our first conversation for me to see why. It wasn’t cool to like women and becoming one was terrifying for her. I have tried to be more vocal in my support for women ever since. I don’t want social clout for hating women. We are actively teaching our kids that women are awesome, we respect and support them!
Not true at all. Here's another perspective: nobody hates women like other women. All the social capital and etiquette garb worn by women is to protect reputation in front of other women. All the tomboy's in my life tell me about the nightmarish gossip and cruelty other women spray on them. You think a man cares about you holding a Prada or a jute bag? No, but other women do.
Yes, women can be vicious to each other. But like in all areas of life, we get to choose. I choose people to be in my life who care about what really matters. My female friends don't care if I have a handbag or just carry my phone and keys in my pockets.
Women may put other women down for their choices, but at least they acknowledge their existence as more than a living piece of furniture.
THIS is such an important point. I was trying to think of the reverse of Celeste’s point. Like if women have to like men to be revered/regarded well in society, and I’d argue the answer is yes, to be liked by both men and women, women must seem like the like/respect men. If women come off like they don’t like men, many men will automatically disregard them as being a male hater and go on the defense. She doesn’t like me so why would I like her?
GREAT point Halle
Miserable cat ladies, for instance, which says more about JD Vance than about women.
exactly this. 'acting' in the workplace can mess up at home behaviour.
There are a lot of women who don't recognize misogyny when they see it.
No, not necessarily.
OMG. How true?!! I thought I was the only woman who noticed this problematic issue.
An angry, belligerent reichwing lawyer in the late 70s, Phyllis Schlafly, rallied CONservatives and all media to magnify her protest against passing The Equal Rights Amendment for WOMEN.
She succeeded in blowing it up.
As I was reading I was also thinking of WOMEN who don’t like women 😪
Ugh so true on all counts
THIS.
Works well if you tend bar.
So true!
I’ve been thinking about this exact topic a lot lately. My soon-to-be-ex husband does not like women. It’s crazy how in such a complicated, nuanced world, this particular measure of human nature is so stark, a “yes” or “no” with few caveats. When mentally surveying the men in my life, my intuition gives me the answer almost immediately. From a practical standpoint, as I re-enter singledom after a 20 year hiatus, this will be criterion numero uno when sizing up a potential date or lover. (As in yes, must like women).
Yesss! Right?! I have the same experience- like it’s so obvious to me. Good luck out there Meg!! ❤️❤️❤️❤️
Yes, yes!! One of the biggest green flags I clocked when dating my husband was that he had multiple platonic friendships with both straight and gay women, even while working in a male-dominated field.
Good luck out there!
Caroline, to your point about your husband working in a male-dominated field: my (ex) husband works in a creative field with many women colleagues. Meanwhile, one of the most “women-liking” guys I know by far, my friend’s husband, is a men’s college basketball coach (and I'll add comes from a family with very traditional gender roles).
I’m not sure how to articulate this, but it’s almost like a man’s for predilection for women (in this sense) is this intrinsic, almost spiritual part of their nature that transcends profession, interests, upbringing, etc. , at least in some instances. (But I'm also also not saying that men/people can't change. But to start, they have to want to. . . )
They will only want to change when there are social and status demerits for disliking and disrespecting women.
Who will assign those demerits?
Big Ben Roethlisberger raped a woman. No consequence, right? Kobe Bryant, raped a woman. No consequence, right? Cuz these boys were he-men on the field and court and, godammit sports is IMPORTANT! So many others. What's your take?
Make em pay! I say!
Yes, it's a part of their character!
lol, yes, that’s a better way of putting it! But when we generally (ie as a society) talk a man’s character in relation to how he treats/relates to women, I don’t think what we’re discussing here is really considered. But it should be!
Yes, I think that being a generally respectful, polite person is how society sees it. Or, sometimes the standard is even lower, and society judges a person not being violent as good enough to be considered of good character. Is that what you mean?
Powerful piece. This totally captures how you know: "It’s in the listening, the curiosity, the respect. It’s in the eye contact. It’s how they speak of other women or speak over women. It’s whether or not they ever read women authors, listen to podcasts hosted by women." And yes, so much about performing dominance until you don't know you're performing it anymore.
“So much about performing dominance that you don’t know you’re performing it anymore” 👏👏 nailed it
That's why you never ever sell your house and move state to be with your internet lover! No eye contact!!!!!
Oof! No eye contact but you have no idea til the house is gone…
Well, I should have had an idea, because I was only looking at a screen 👀!!
😅 ahhh, you live and learn!
Take his house. That will teach him! Perfect.
Sort of related... Plenty of kids movies/books/shows are coded "gender neutral" and feature a leading male character. I struggle to think of any that feature a leading female character. The fact that a story is "about a girl" automatically makes it "not for boys"
YESSSSS!!!! I notice this all the time!! Every Disney movie- it’s either marketed as for everyone with a male protagonist or only for girls with a female protagonist. And on the rare occasion there is a female protagonist- she has to be super super not feminine (turning red, girl in Wreck it Ralph, etc) We simply do not expect boys to watch ANYTHING whiffing of girly
Omg Paw Patrol. It drives me right up the wall. Yet mention it to others mothers and they don’t see it. Then realize you can’t belabour the point without coming off as weird, so you drop it and hope it sinks in later. Just maybe they will question why the lead is a little boy and the lead dog is male. Why 5/6 of the original dogs are male. Why the answer “so boys will watch it” is problematic. And how the only reason you know 1/6 is female is because she’s pink.
That's why I prefer Bluey. She is a girl dog :-) Even though it sounds like a boy's name. Us Aussies are good at cheeky sneaky humour :-)
Bluey is pure genius. Proof that writing tv for kids and adults and all genders that is good is completely possible!
Indeed. My grandson loves the colour, the glitz, the glamour, the singing of the girly kids progs. I bought him two soft toys. Particular winged unicorns I knew he'd love. His father's face said all it needed to. So sad to be so blinkered.
What I’m REALLY over is the national term “you guys.” Spare me—we’re not all guys!
Yes, and it even extends to fiction and film for adults!
The film industry caters to a young male audience, with its focus on comic book adaptations and superheroes, and action flicks with car chases and explosions - and a macho male starring in them.
And the producer of those comic movies and superhero flicks is a woman. The entire book publishing industry is 98% female. The majority of pop stars are female. There are more rom-coms and drama movies made each year than action movies. Television is dominated by female-centred shows. Western culture has been female focused since the early 90s.
So what?
You and your fellow travellers are tilting at windmills. That's the point. But I don't expect anyone pointing this out will stop you from continuing to battle those imaginary foes, rationality and accountability are not virtues of the feminist.
The ludicrous claim that modern culture caters to young males: Have you noticed who is the number one musical performer today? I'll give you a clue--she has a very macho boyfriend.
Oh, gee whiz, one performer belies the fact that men have dominated the entertainment industry since the 1800s. You're a genius.
Actually, not authentically macho. Read Tom Siebert today on Substack.
Avatar: The Last Airbender and The Legend of Korra stand out as exceptions <3
Korra l will give you but the main characters of Avatar are Aang, Sokka, Zuko, Airo (4 males) and Kotarra (1 female)... This is the standard paw patrol 4-1 gender "neutral" split exactly!
Aang, Sokka, Zuko (3 males), Toph & Katara (2 females), plus Suki becomes a fairly big character later on (Sokka’s girlfriend). So, almost an even split for most of the story, and an even split for the rest. Not to mention that a trio of primary antagonists (Azula, Mai, and Ty Lee) are all female. So Avatar is actually a pretty even split.
Wonderful thoughts. As a man, I aspire to be like Glenn, and promise to check myself more often to avoid being like Tom.
Thank you Hans 🙏🏼 that’s so refreshing
Thank you. What Celeste Davis said.
Good to hear you are willing to be open to seeing other perceptions and to doing things differently, Hans!
Reading this was a bit of a gut check for me as I have believed that I have genuinely liked women for the majority of my life. Now, on the other side of divorce with twin daughters and a young son, I hope I do better. Divorce from the patriarchy and church I hope brings a new and better horizon. Thank you for sharing this timely and much needed essay with all of us.
Here's my short list for spotting a man who likes women:
1) Has female friends.
2) Speaks positively about the contributions and skills of female colleagues. This is especially true if they're older women.
3) Will earnestly challenge a woman if he disagrees with her. This is not done in a domineering way, but the expectation that a woman can defend her ideas.
4) He will apologize to a women when he's in the wrong or has made a mistake.
5) He notices when women are being treated unfairly.
👏👏👏great list!!
This prompted me to make a mental inventory of all the men I’ve known, and to consider the impact of culture — regional, ethnic and professional. By far the highest number of “men who like women,” I’ve found, are in the teaching profession. (Not all, but a plurality.) I wonder — does it attract men who are already comfortable functioning in what amounts to a matriarchy, and/or does it come over time through collaborating closely with so many women who are comfortable commanding a room (or a whole building) on the daily?
That might explain why VP Harris thought Tim Walz was the better partner.
I had that thought too!
Celeste!!! Anne Helen Peterson's essay blew my mind, and now you've blown it again. I am so profoundly sad to read this and recognize some of my core experiences:
"They get to proudly wear that title of “good” man WHILE not respecting women, not listening to women, not liking women. Treating women like an equal is not a requirement for being a good man."
I remember talking to my parents as a 10- or 12-year-old, and explaining how one of my friends (a boy) was now incessantly teasing me, insulting me, and putting me down. I was upset at the verbal bullying, but since we had been good friend before, I also felt deeply betrayed. Their response was,
"No, he's a good kid."
It was then that I realized what you've said here: that if my family/community thought well of a boy or man, none of my experiences with him would affect that. This was confirmed over the years, but in no instance was it any less devastating.
That reminds me of Jr High where the boys were following me and throwing apple cores, cookies and trying to trip me. My Mother explained that it was a sign that they liked me. I insisted that they hated me. I had read about the Witch Trials and felt like I was being pelted by refuse by the fearful men. I was right. She was wrong. A large segment of the male population do not like women.
Right?? I still don't understand if people *actually think* that that's how kids express affection, or if it's just what people say to try to make victims feel better about themselves. Either way, it's totally messed up.
Thank you so much for your comment. The particulars are different, but I definitely share that same experience of being deeply hurt and betrayed as a child. First by my "best friend's" bigotry and derogatory remarks. Second by my folks' utter dismissal of my reality.
It’s disheartening and crazy making when our reality is dismissed or denied and has a long term impact on our/girls’ ability to trust our gut. And it’s incredibly confusing when innocent questions girls ask about the gender imbalance or erasure of women is responded to with “that’s just the way it is” or “it’s tradition.” That is why I wrote my Sexism & Sensibility — to put an end to the denial, and address gender bias and sexism directly with girls!!
So sorry you experienced the same thing!
Woah! This is so good! It explains why I tried to take on interests and attitudes that were masculine from when I was a teen. It feels a little harder for me to evaluate the men in my life because I work in a very male-dominated field and so I feel like I don’t have enough data: is he not reading women because he doesn’t like women or because there just aren’t many who’ve written in this subject? Does he not listen to women, or is it just me? When the whole system doesn’t like women, it’s hard to evaluate the individual men!
Oh totally and when a lack of female representation is just the air you breathe- it’s so much harder for men to self evaluate or even notice if they treat women differently
Somewhat related to this it made me think about men in the church specifically. I tend to believe (and it seems like you’d agree) men are socialized to not like women. Are men who are raised in a patriarchal church at a disadvantage? From infancy basically in the Mormon church they only see men on the stand, men passing the sacrament, men as authority and worth listening to. Is it any wonder a man thought women’s talks in GC were for naps and snacks? It makes me so angry when I see men who leave the church but don’t even bother touching their internalized misogyny in their deconstruction.
I think you nailed it, Celeste. The men who are not conscious of the way they’re treating women is only a mirror of our society as a whole, where most of us have our heads in the sand. I think the majority of us think that if they don’t see it, it’s not happening and they would rather dig themselves a hole and climb in, then be conscious, aware and self-empowered.
I also work in a male-dominated field, and I think one of the realizations I have had recently is how many men are attracted to this field BECAUSE they don’t like women. The lack of women around them isn’t a drawback or a problem to be solved, it’s a perk. I know this isn’t everyone (I have also worked with men who like women, and it makes a huge difference), but I have found myself asking a lot fewer “is it just me?” questions recently, because no, it’s not just me. It’s much too common to be just me! Realizing this is both depressing and liberating, because I don’t have to keep trying so hard to make up for a problem I can’t fix.
Wow. First the article, then the comments. Revelation after revelation. I never thought of any of this. I just couldn’t manage working as a female engineer. I was miserable. I didn’t realize… I wasn’t liked. But it hangs together. Why women were let go so frequently. Why we and our close male friends always “under performed” no matter how well we did. Why no effort was made to combat the sexism. I understood it was sexism making my life hell at the end of my short career, but I never thought of it in terms of “like”. And as if the article wasn’t enough (and it was!), comments like yours have nailed it home personally. Wow.
Yes! It sounds like you and I have had some similar experiences here. I am in my 8th year as a software engineer working in tech, and I’m just about ready to give up and move on. Until it became extremely obvious at my current job, I’m not sure I had words for why I kept facing all this subtle resistance that my male coworkers didn’t seem to run into. One of the experiences they cemented this for me was announcing my pregnancy/upcoming maternity leave to my team last month. My male teammates just stared at me and didn’t say anything about it, and then were like “okay… moving on!” It was extremely awkward, and when I talked to a friend about it, she was like “well clearly they just don’t like you! Someone who cared about your experience would have at least said congratulations!” MIND BLOWN MOMENT. It also explains these attitudes are so hard to do anything about, because what am I supposed to do about it? Go to the men up my management chain and tell them my coworkers don’t like me? I’m not sure they would even know what to do with that!
Very similar! I’m sorry you are going through that. It is brutal and revelatory and validating and crushing all at once.
I couldn’t really believe I was actually being discriminated against (“subtle resistance” - damn so true - and impossible to explain in a way that gets taken seriously even by yourself!) until just days before I was called down to a meeting room and knew exactly what was happening.
I ran into my ex-boss and two ex-coworkers the other day and was puzzled that the ex-coworkers talked to me while my boss literally turned his back to me and ignored me. Surely he doesn’t feel guilty? Does he blame me? Do I make him uncomfortable? Oh. He doesn’t like me. And the other two genuinely do. That tracks.
You can’t make them like you. Even if it was possible to make a valid complaint, no amount of sensitivity training will make them like you. But you can get out before you cease to like yourself.
(Damn but it all makes sense now! Like why sensitivity training doesn’t work. Surely learning helps, but not if the real problem is dislike. Mind blown again!)
“You can’t make them like you. Even if it was possible to make a valid complaint, no amount of sensitivity training will make them like you. But you can get out before you cease to like yourself.” 🔥🔥🔥
BRB, I’m going to put this on post-it note on my bathroom mirror.
Oh my I’m tearing up! But it feels so real. 🤗
I have followed this discussion between the two of you with such interest as the revelations unfold. How can one do anything with such subtle discrimination as that? It’s impossible. So you cope with working with a bunch of people who don’t like you or you leave and the environment never gets any easier. How can equality of opportunity ever come into being?
Wow yes! This is quite specific, but I remember noticing when I was younger and in a Catholic setting that many of the priests or young men who aspired to be priests seemed to feel incredibly awkward around women, and wondering if that was the reason they chose the priesthood in the first place.
Oh yes there is so much to say about this in religious communities as well. I grew up evangelical, and men in my church were specifically taught to only listen to other men. I suspect that many men were drawn to this church tradition because it freed them from the need to treat women as equals.
That's a great point! "Oh, no wonder I feel uncomfortable treating women as equals, God never *meant* for me to do so!" How very convenient.
"...it freed them from the need to treat women as equals."
Was there ever a need?
That's a great point about the whole system.
Spot on! This was definitely a trait I was looking for in a spouse, but maybe couldn’t define so clearly. Thank god he does since we’ve had three daughters. And once we had those babies, we realized the church didn’t like woman. “And for those reasons, I’m out.” 😂
Haha oh gosh the church does NOT like women! 😂
Most Churches do not like women and the Bible was written by misogynist men who were eliminating the women Priestesses, Goddesses and even their God's wife from the Sumerian texts that they were plagiarizing. History is interesting as long as you realize that it was His Story.
Reading your comment, I just realized that the church I grew up in, Christian Science, actually liked women. Sunday services felt like a very feminine atmosphere -- few men attended, and the ones who did would not be considered masculine by today's standards. Maybe that's one reason (besides the whole doctor thing) CS has been vilified. I quit the church at 16 when I stopped believing the doctrine, but it was good to grow up feeling that being female was valued, at least on Sundays.
Also, since patriarchy doesn’t work on Earth, why would we believe in three male spirits running Heaven?
I started reading and stopped breathing somewhere along the way because this is all so true. You burned the house down, Celeste. There are only a few men left standing. But you know what? Even if it doesn’t matter to them, I don’t have time for men who don’t like women. Or women who don’t like women. So let it all burn. Those of us who appreciate and respect women are having a better time. I’m sure of it.
🔥LET IT ALL BURN!🔥 We shall dance on the ashes 💃🏻
My kind of party!
Yes, we who enjoy close women friends absolutely are blessed. I adore my women friends and I also love men. Is there a term for that kind of like ambidextrous? 😂
Celeste, I really liked this post. As I man—a man who grew up in the U.S., a man who likes women—I see the things you say here as almost obviously true, and it makes me terribly sad to realize that women don’t know this already. But I’d like to add that the U.S. is a county with an especially macho culture, at least in part (look at the 30 million MAGA people). I left the U.S. for Europe many years ago, and while no society is perfect, I have always felt much freer to openly like women here. I hope and pray that the tide of culture will change one day in my native country.
I notice a difference as well! It varies a lot country to country and culture to culture- but there is a tangible difference in every day interactions with men- depending on what country you are in.
Yes, and of course, there are different cultures in a country the size of the USA. One of my most perplexing experiences growing up there, as the son of a very independent and admirable single mother, was being confronted with the misogyny that was so pervasive in the culture around me. Now I think that misogyny has gotten much weaker in some parts of the country and much stronger in others. Honestly, Trump and his people are pushing nothing so much as a campaign to denigrate and disempower women, and it saddens me that that message has garnered so much support.
This isn't new to CONservatives, reichwing tribe, at all. I was brought up to atleast be cognizant of politics even if I didn't vote (shame on me.) I was in my late teens, then.
I noticed in the 70s, an obnoxious, aggressive CONservative, reichwing lawyer named Phyllis Schlafly, rallied all media with all of her party behind her to stop The Equal Rights Amendment FOR women.
“ ‘Father Knows Best’, mom-is-subservient,” messaging was the trademark of all Republicans, CONservatives then and it's the same today, but with their misogyny off the hook now because their cult leader is.
I really appreciate what you said here Gregory. I'd be interested to hear more about your life in Portugal. I've lived in Italy on and off for many years.
Thanks, Chandi! My new Substack, Living Elsewhere, will be launching in a few days, so please feel free to check it out and see my take on what it's like living on this side of the Pond. (I'll write a bit about Italy too, though I've lived there much less. I will definitely check out what you have to say about life there.)
Cool! 😎
Great article, Celeste. I like women! At least I hope I am doing all the things that men do that like women. Honestly I have always preferred the company of women over men. Seems like I can have deeper conversations with women and I just enjoy being around them over men. Your article serves as a good reminder to keep working on doing the things that men do that like women. Thank you.
Steve the fact that you regularly read, support and thoughtfully comment on a feminist newsletter is a strong indicator that you are a women liker 😊😊🙌🙌
How interesting, Steve! It seems that almost every single one of my male friends have confided in me that they feel closer with women and that guys don’t respect their sensitive side.
I will have to reflect more about whether or not the men in my life like women. But roughly 80% of the men I encountered at the grocery store today certainly don’t respect women. When I encountered men in the aisles, 8 out of the 10 expected me to move out of their way. I know this isn’t new, but it was especially apparent today. Gross.
I periodically run an experiment: I refuse to move out of the way of young boys and men. The look on their faces as I stop and wait for them to move around me is always interesting.
I do this with young boys and men so they don’t get comfortable with walking where they want. I’m a crone, dammit! Have some respect and move out of MY way.
I do the same thing, except with all men, young or old. It’s a work in progress, but I’m being mindful of how often I defer to men as an automatic response. I’m 55 and I’m over kowtowing to men just because. It’s not dominance I seek. I’m tired of twisting myself into knots and making myself as small and invisible as possible - rejecting myself in the process - in the clearly unsuccessful attempt to be likable or not viewed as a b, particularly by men.
😅😂🤣