This couldn't be more perfectly timed for me. Thank you for writing this!
꧁SYNCHRONICITY!꧂
I left the Mormon church a few years ago. The "men have the priesthood because it stretches them to be better" idea came up in my Voxer group with my still-Mormon-but-very-nuanced-and-progressive chat.
I'm the only one that's fully left it in the group, so I'm careful to not hurt the feelings of my dear friend who is the most devout of the group. I did speak up about how grumpy I feel about this argument now that I have very kind-hearted, compassionate male atheist friends who don't rely on a religious structure to develop feminine traits.
Your article is a wonderful exploration of masculine and feminine traits and the conundrum of patriarchal religions who nudge men to be more compassionate, empathetic at the expense of a structure where women are, if not silenced, second class citizens.
Breaking Down Patriarchy made a big impact on my faith transition and I thank you for the work you are doing. ♡
- - - - - [context]- - - - -
I'm a full time comedian. I didn't talk about Mormonism on stage but got so many questions and interest about my Mormon roots I finally made a full hour (called "Best Cult Ever") to bring to Edinburgh Fringe. I never wanted to be a vocal exmo but felt moved to address the pros and cons in a funny approachable way.
I typically avoid stereotypes of “all men” or “all women”. But THIS really struck a chord with me. I am a therapist and j see what you mean about marriage therapy having too few tools for the women in the relationships. “compromise” (more).
Thank you for saying this about the different needs of the divine feminine vs what men need to work on.
Both because of and despite my upbringing in severe religious abuse, I've always had triggers (emotional flashbacks) when I hear "spiritual" leaders, therapists, and self-help types preach their mainstream ego-crushing dogma at women. Cause I've known for a very long time this kind of fear fuckery is why my mom remained committed to a misogynistic child abusing sociopath until the day he died. She thought asserting herself--even to protect her own children!--would be defying not just my dad. But God Himself.
It's hard to adequately express the gratitude I feel reading this again today. Because this distinction is sooooooo important for releasing the patriarchal legacy burdens (in Dick Schwartz's terms) most women carry, often without realizing it. And almost nobody in mainstream circles gets it yet--which is actually a great way for us to discern whom NOT to trust.
Perhaps our mothers married the same man. Sounds oh-so-familiar. Sadly, my mother is still not permitted to answer her own door without male permission. That’s just not going to work for me. I get the religious abuse thing perfectly. I’m out for good. Definitely out of churches.
I am almost physically allergic to the "feminine energy" rhetoric (because it is designed to equate women's experience with submission). However, this is a profoundly educated, informed and thought-provoking elaboration, thank you! 💯💯☀️
I am sober and found a lot of help in the rooms of AA but eventually left because of this. I can't humble myself or take more responsibility for the "mistakes" in my life. The Big Book, just like religious teachings was written by men for men. Some of the teachings can be further damaging for women.
It's an attitude of gratitude! Choose to be happy! Keep a gratitude journal, it will change your life! Change your attitude and change your life... It's really simple, you see…😬😄 I've heard all those things, too.
No, if you aren't irritated, something needs to be fixed. Don't pretend to be grateful and blessed when changing something is the actual answer.
The funny thing is that I find it easy to feel gratitude now that I’m divorced. I take care of myself now, and I feel how lucky I am to have power over my happiness!
Yes!! All of this. Yes. Understanding that my husband and I are on *very* different spiritual journeys has been radically significant to our marriage and to my peace of mind. I’m taking up more space and standing up for what needs to be defended and in turn he is nurturing our relationship—and me. It’s kind of crazy how a simple reframe can shift so much.
I would just like to add, this is also a big reason why the 12-Step programs (AA, NA, Gamblers' Anonymous, etc.) are deeply flawed as a recovery method for women. Their model of the addict is a male one -- someone who is self-centered, egotistical and who treats other people as lesser. A lot of those "12 Steps" have to do with dissolving the ego, and that's the last thing many women addicts need.
Yes! When I got sober 20 years ago AA was the biggest threat to my continued sobriety. The meetings made me feel worthless and hopeless. It was only after a colleague gave me "permission" to get sober without AA that I really began my road to recovery. I couldn't stand the idea of being powerless over my addiction, so I took my power back. I now call myself a "nonpracticing" alcoholic because I choose not to participate in that aspect of my life/past. I have the power to make that choice.
When people ask me why my marriage didn’t work - I always say I didn’t stand up for myself as I could’ve/shouldve. Once I started letting him walk over me/caved in for the kids - I’d lost the game. 22 years later, I got out for psychic (and maybe earthly) survival.
I was going to send it to my 3 daughters/in laws, but realized… they don’t need it like I did. They have carved out time for themselves - have set boundaries - take up their own space.
That wasn't your fault! Even if you never stood up for yourself once he could've still made the decision to change and respect you/women. I'm so sorry that went down that way. Never accept responsibility for his choices and failures. You didn't know and you had no support. It is getting better, but just know we all support women who went thru it during the hard time when no one was talking about it
Fantastic, Celeste. You always articulate so beautifully things that I have been struggling to describe for years. I have written a lot about the nature of power, greed, kindness, and empathy as functions of human nature that either work against or for human cooperation. This piece gave me the ah-ha! moment. I needed to reframe that thinking as a difference between the masculine and the feminine. It makes so much sense now. And within the framework of religion makes even more sense. The differential relationship with ego is the axis around which it all runs. We are taught that to be kind is to be small is to be correct. Men are taught that to be kind is to be weak or somehow extraordinary. It took me years of therapy to realize what a need was or that I had any. Still working on that part. It doesn’t come naturally. As an extension, I’ve been trying to write a piece about boundaries. Now I believe the framing must be around women’s boundaries versus men’s. Big differences there too. Thank you as always!!
I think what you describe may touch on my very cautious response to practices of Ignation spirituality. I resist viscerally being “broken down.” Very thought provoking. Thank you.
Yes. I didn’t need to mindfulness my anger away for decades, I needed to feel angry. I didn’t need more couples counselling, I wanted more of what my husband had.. a more self-centric, engaged approach to life. I don’t want to compromise my life away, I already did that. I needed to be more aggressive (healthily), I didn’t need to be more understanding. The seven deadly sins were written for men, not for women. We don’t need to be told, don’t be angry, proud, greedy, slothful (rest). We need to be them more!!
Thank you for passing on Elizabeth Gilbert’s views here and expanding and exploring with your own. I find this to be a hugely overlooked (and yet somehow so obvious) area where women are trying to find their own next steps toward human liberation and finding only prescriptions fit for the center-of-the-universe masculine recovery journey. In general I tend to shy away from masculine/feminine as narrow categories but my own walk (and now my coaching work) has absolutely embraced the reality that, for women, we deeply need MORE room to play and explore what we want. Receiving a prescription from the world to be more giving and selfless is like telling a menopausal uterine it needs to keep keep producing and giving its blood. Even our biology is like nope.
Wow — this one really hit me as spot on. I read this article with no background in notions of “divine feminine” and “divine masculine,” but the articulation of these concepts, and then the inherent problems of religion *only* addressing the divine masculine jumped off my screen at me. This really seems to nail part of the problem that my former spouse and I could never adequately articulate when we were formerly in the Mormon faith (a faith we each spent more than four decades in).
I loved this. Especially the fact that it arrived on a Sunday when I have refused to attend yet another church.
This is a memoir in a sentence!
Thanks 😂
This couldn't be more perfectly timed for me. Thank you for writing this!
꧁SYNCHRONICITY!꧂
I left the Mormon church a few years ago. The "men have the priesthood because it stretches them to be better" idea came up in my Voxer group with my still-Mormon-but-very-nuanced-and-progressive chat.
I'm the only one that's fully left it in the group, so I'm careful to not hurt the feelings of my dear friend who is the most devout of the group. I did speak up about how grumpy I feel about this argument now that I have very kind-hearted, compassionate male atheist friends who don't rely on a religious structure to develop feminine traits.
Your article is a wonderful exploration of masculine and feminine traits and the conundrum of patriarchal religions who nudge men to be more compassionate, empathetic at the expense of a structure where women are, if not silenced, second class citizens.
Breaking Down Patriarchy made a big impact on my faith transition and I thank you for the work you are doing. ♡
- - - - - [context]- - - - -
I'm a full time comedian. I didn't talk about Mormonism on stage but got so many questions and interest about my Mormon roots I finally made a full hour (called "Best Cult Ever") to bring to Edinburgh Fringe. I never wanted to be a vocal exmo but felt moved to address the pros and cons in a funny approachable way.
Might see you there!
That would be lovely! Let me know if you'd like a discount code. I have a half off coupon for friends. :)
I typically avoid stereotypes of “all men” or “all women”. But THIS really struck a chord with me. I am a therapist and j see what you mean about marriage therapy having too few tools for the women in the relationships. “compromise” (more).
Thank you for saying this about the different needs of the divine feminine vs what men need to work on.
Both because of and despite my upbringing in severe religious abuse, I've always had triggers (emotional flashbacks) when I hear "spiritual" leaders, therapists, and self-help types preach their mainstream ego-crushing dogma at women. Cause I've known for a very long time this kind of fear fuckery is why my mom remained committed to a misogynistic child abusing sociopath until the day he died. She thought asserting herself--even to protect her own children!--would be defying not just my dad. But God Himself.
It's hard to adequately express the gratitude I feel reading this again today. Because this distinction is sooooooo important for releasing the patriarchal legacy burdens (in Dick Schwartz's terms) most women carry, often without realizing it. And almost nobody in mainstream circles gets it yet--which is actually a great way for us to discern whom NOT to trust.
Thank you again, Celeste. So much.
Perhaps our mothers married the same man. Sounds oh-so-familiar. Sadly, my mother is still not permitted to answer her own door without male permission. That’s just not going to work for me. I get the religious abuse thing perfectly. I’m out for good. Definitely out of churches.
I feel you, Elizabeth😤😭
I am almost physically allergic to the "feminine energy" rhetoric (because it is designed to equate women's experience with submission). However, this is a profoundly educated, informed and thought-provoking elaboration, thank you! 💯💯☀️
I am sober and found a lot of help in the rooms of AA but eventually left because of this. I can't humble myself or take more responsibility for the "mistakes" in my life. The Big Book, just like religious teachings was written by men for men. Some of the teachings can be further damaging for women.
Me too. I see so many women filled with rage at being told to "be grateful." (I'm one)
It's an attitude of gratitude! Choose to be happy! Keep a gratitude journal, it will change your life! Change your attitude and change your life... It's really simple, you see…😬😄 I've heard all those things, too.
No, if you aren't irritated, something needs to be fixed. Don't pretend to be grateful and blessed when changing something is the actual answer.
And, of course HUMBLE yourself.
Ten million likes!
The funny thing is that I find it easy to feel gratitude now that I’m divorced. I take care of myself now, and I feel how lucky I am to have power over my happiness!
Yes!! All of this. Yes. Understanding that my husband and I are on *very* different spiritual journeys has been radically significant to our marriage and to my peace of mind. I’m taking up more space and standing up for what needs to be defended and in turn he is nurturing our relationship—and me. It’s kind of crazy how a simple reframe can shift so much.
I would just like to add, this is also a big reason why the 12-Step programs (AA, NA, Gamblers' Anonymous, etc.) are deeply flawed as a recovery method for women. Their model of the addict is a male one -- someone who is self-centered, egotistical and who treats other people as lesser. A lot of those "12 Steps" have to do with dissolving the ego, and that's the last thing many women addicts need.
Yes! When I got sober 20 years ago AA was the biggest threat to my continued sobriety. The meetings made me feel worthless and hopeless. It was only after a colleague gave me "permission" to get sober without AA that I really began my road to recovery. I couldn't stand the idea of being powerless over my addiction, so I took my power back. I now call myself a "nonpracticing" alcoholic because I choose not to participate in that aspect of my life/past. I have the power to make that choice.
Oh my god(dess) YES -
a THOUSAND times yes.
When people ask me why my marriage didn’t work - I always say I didn’t stand up for myself as I could’ve/shouldve. Once I started letting him walk over me/caved in for the kids - I’d lost the game. 22 years later, I got out for psychic (and maybe earthly) survival.
I was going to send it to my 3 daughters/in laws, but realized… they don’t need it like I did. They have carved out time for themselves - have set boundaries - take up their own space.
So maybe -
Just maybe -
It’s getting better?
That wasn't your fault! Even if you never stood up for yourself once he could've still made the decision to change and respect you/women. I'm so sorry that went down that way. Never accept responsibility for his choices and failures. You didn't know and you had no support. It is getting better, but just know we all support women who went thru it during the hard time when no one was talking about it
Fantastic, Celeste. You always articulate so beautifully things that I have been struggling to describe for years. I have written a lot about the nature of power, greed, kindness, and empathy as functions of human nature that either work against or for human cooperation. This piece gave me the ah-ha! moment. I needed to reframe that thinking as a difference between the masculine and the feminine. It makes so much sense now. And within the framework of religion makes even more sense. The differential relationship with ego is the axis around which it all runs. We are taught that to be kind is to be small is to be correct. Men are taught that to be kind is to be weak or somehow extraordinary. It took me years of therapy to realize what a need was or that I had any. Still working on that part. It doesn’t come naturally. As an extension, I’ve been trying to write a piece about boundaries. Now I believe the framing must be around women’s boundaries versus men’s. Big differences there too. Thank you as always!!
I think what you describe may touch on my very cautious response to practices of Ignation spirituality. I resist viscerally being “broken down.” Very thought provoking. Thank you.
Yes. I didn’t need to mindfulness my anger away for decades, I needed to feel angry. I didn’t need more couples counselling, I wanted more of what my husband had.. a more self-centric, engaged approach to life. I don’t want to compromise my life away, I already did that. I needed to be more aggressive (healthily), I didn’t need to be more understanding. The seven deadly sins were written for men, not for women. We don’t need to be told, don’t be angry, proud, greedy, slothful (rest). We need to be them more!!
Thank you for passing on Elizabeth Gilbert’s views here and expanding and exploring with your own. I find this to be a hugely overlooked (and yet somehow so obvious) area where women are trying to find their own next steps toward human liberation and finding only prescriptions fit for the center-of-the-universe masculine recovery journey. In general I tend to shy away from masculine/feminine as narrow categories but my own walk (and now my coaching work) has absolutely embraced the reality that, for women, we deeply need MORE room to play and explore what we want. Receiving a prescription from the world to be more giving and selfless is like telling a menopausal uterine it needs to keep keep producing and giving its blood. Even our biology is like nope.
I feel so seen. Thank you for writing this and sharing!! It resonates so so much.
Wow — this one really hit me as spot on. I read this article with no background in notions of “divine feminine” and “divine masculine,” but the articulation of these concepts, and then the inherent problems of religion *only* addressing the divine masculine jumped off my screen at me. This really seems to nail part of the problem that my former spouse and I could never adequately articulate when we were formerly in the Mormon faith (a faith we each spent more than four decades in).
The way I’m crying??? Reading this???