Thank you so much for writing this! Yes yes yes. I was *just* listening to Liz Gilbert’s interview on the Tim Ferris podcast. One quote that I had to pause and write on a post note: “it’s the trap that women fall into - they try so hard to be “good” that they are not able to be who we actually are.” Substitute women for mothers to get even more specific and resonate.
There is a collective conscious awakening among women to these things and it feels good to be here. Please keep writing 🫶🏼
I’m not sure what I believe about timing, coincidence or idiosyncrasies. BUT! I was reading “At the Root of This Longing” by Carol L. Flinders for the *first* time yesterday and this premise was with me all day. How deeply patriarchy entangles itself into everything... It’s inescapable. And the immense shame I’ve experienced trying to become more Christlike, destroying my ego, giving more when I had no sense of self, much less anything else, to give. I don’t know if have much of an ego to dissolve. I’ve always been a daughter, a sister, a wife, a mother- titles that are relational to someone else, usually a man. I’m just barely trying to create my own identity, my own ego.
I don’t have a god-complex because society has never treated me (or probably any woman) as someone who could do whatever I wanted with impunity. I’ve never had power to yield.
Call it whatever, perhaps there is a universal, energetic realization- a waking up- of women who want to be “good” and are given a list of things they already do (often to our own detriment). And the shame of seeing the list, knowing how hard we’re trying to do more of all those things, and STILL- still feeling like we’ll never get there, so we must be broken. If I try to dissolve my ego any more, will I completely disappear?
Is this the goal? For women to be pushed into nothingness by their desire to become divine (which in my experience is synonymous with “perfect”)? Are we so, so tired yet? I am.
Wow. Thank you for this Madison. It’s perfect. (Yes perfect 🙃) the patriarchy has weaseled its way into everything- I can so relate to everything you’ve said here
I also saw that TikTok and was so grateful to hear someone else express something similar to what I had been feeling. I was having a hard time hearing men teach about mindfulness and detachment with no examples of how to accomplish that when you are taking care of/ responsible for children who talk to you and need you incessantly. I started looking up how many of these teachers even had children. I felt like I needed to learn this stuff from women who understood my situation, but this broader conversation has me realizing I need a whole different curriculum.
This is resonating 100%. It makes sense. I have been listening to the 7 principles book on and off, and it’s good to have a reminder that it’s coming from a man. I’ve hit a few snags that really bothered me. One was the advice to only bring up a criticism/problem to your husband, if you as the wife can lead with the part you did wrong in the situation. So taking the blame even if you’ve done nothing wrong is recommended so that Men receive it better. We already accommodate men and get blame where we’ve done nothing wrong.
Oooooh I have a whole host of complaints about Gottman (starting with the unacknowledged patriarchal takes and def including the immense amount of divorce shame)
Just adding one thought, oversimplifying it in the interest of minimizing my characteristic long-windedness: I feel these religious tools don't work that well for men, either---because they outsource the work to women. An unfortunate patriarchal partner to all the tools in the toolbox (dissolve the ego, practice compassion) is literally "But luckily, women are so good at that. Just marry a good enough woman and you won't have to try that hard." I have no daughters, just sons, and when this hit me as a younger mom, my world flipped over. --As you've stated, in business, in church, in school organizations, everywhere--the women are encouraged to (for instance) volunteer, endlessly. And men agree that's good and noble. But they literally outsource it to the women. (Who have been socially and otherwise indoctrinated that their willingness to carry others' burdens is how they prove their own worthiness.)
So even [most of] the men are not doing do their own work.
And I meant to start with thank you so much for this brilliant piece. I've appreciated your work and followed you for quite a while now---and while I haven't booked a session with you myself (yet), I've suggested you to a handful of likeminded seekers. <3
Yes!! Wow!! Yes, this! I was a devout Mormon until about 7 years ago. I don’t know if it was my mother or the fact that I grew up in Massachusetts where strong divine females were everywhere in my “ward” (what Mormons call a congregation), but I always had a strong desire to be powerful, follow my own passions, understand it’s okay to say no, be my own person, etc. I realize now I was taught to want these things by all these powerful women around me. But I always had a desperate desire to be good, and so when I was told at church as part of the standardized curriculum, to serve and be selfless and give, give, give (even when I could sense these strong women’s pushback), I was constantly trying to find a balance. I then went to Utah for college, and then spent most of my adult life raising my family there. Examples of degraded feminine are absolutely everywhere. EVERYWHERE. And so even though I pushed back at the idea of becoming that, and tried to maintain who I was, and pursue my gifts, and find my voice, etc., it was difficult AF, because I felt GUILTY ALL THE TIME. I’m not exaggerating. The voices in my head were constantly: “You should be serving more.” “You should be listening more.” “You should be bringing a casserole to that person.” “You should be babysitting that person’s kids.” “Sure, I can say no, but only after I’ve already said yes to these other things.” “That woman works too hard and serves too much, but how dare I think that? And how dare you think you’re good enough! You should be more like her!”
Of course, when I left the church, that guilt shifted to shame for awhile. I’m still working on that, and as I do, some of the guilt is shifting as well. But even as I transition to a different kind of spirituality, I’m finding a lot of the self-improvement veins of thought are preaching service and contribution. And I start to feel guilty again. Of course I want to contribute!! Of course I want to share my manifested millions!! But I’ve found that the more you preach to the choir, the more the choir feels like shit. The more they believe they’re not enough. So, thank you for this article. It was brilliant, and I’m taking it to heart.
“The more you preach to the choir, the more the choir feels like shit.” 👏👏 well said. And yes the church is degraded women on steroids so even slightly prioritizing your needs feels EXTREME. The guilt is so wild - you certainly aren’t alone
Holy cow, I have been trying to find the words to this idea for a decade! This was the wall I hit. Nothing felt like it was FOR me, or for any woman. None of it took out experiences or our needs into account. Thank you so much for compiling all these wonderful resources and wrapping them in your always beautiful and profound insights. Much love from Jasmine in Iowa City ❤️
A friend shared the premise of your essay with me, and I immediately downloaded substack to find it. This mirrors my reality EXACTLY. I feel emotional reading it - it’s so deeply validating. I could list 1,000 reasons and contexts and settings of life where this feels true to me. I, too, am seeking to promote this exact message. Thank you for writing this!
This is impressive and inspiring. I want to test something, not sure yet if it will hold. Could we go deeper and say that religion, as many of the institutions, serve the dominant group because they are/were created by the dominant. I would change masculine and feminine to dominant gender over historical marginalized gender.
A second thought, connecting these new concepts through allyship. Masculine (dominant) give up thyself in giving space, respecting boundaries and accepting different perspectives in the feminine (historically marginalized).
Have you seen Bad Moms? That’s what this post made me think of, women choosing themselves and each other over what we are told we should be choosing. Great post!
Well, Celeste. You've done it again. I did not hear Elizabeth Gilbert's message, nor do I have TikTok, but I am so grateful that you brought this message to my inbox. This speaks directly to my inner knowing and heart. It's just so damn validating of my life's experience and gives me permission to help women in a different way as a therapist. Thank you for sharing your mind and heart with me!
I loved this and saved so many excerpts for future use. This sounds like a huge key to a missing vital piece. I would love to be in on the discussion to what this looks like more specifically in religious spheres. But I loved the whole thing. Thanks for breaking it down. It brings to mind how I made the decision to no longer see male doctors (unless I have to and they're like, the best--TBD). Because it seemed to me our biology was so different. Why would I see someone who has zero experience in, you know, a pretty crucial part of my make up? Already I am smarter than them in ways they can't even comprehend, and I'd really rather not have to explain to them what it's like to be female, as foundational background info, in order to receive treatment.
Celeste, yes, yes, yes!! This resonates so hard and has been an active avenue of inquiry since I moved on from three years of residency at a Zen temple last summer. I spent the subsequent fall strength training and doing mantras to build myself back up! It's a lot more complicated than that, of course, but I just wanted to say thank you for writing this and for such a crisp articulation of these massive themes. I'm taking a class right now about the sacred feminine in Buddhism and will be sharing with others. You really captured a lot with a little here. :)
Thank you so much for writing this! Yes yes yes. I was *just* listening to Liz Gilbert’s interview on the Tim Ferris podcast. One quote that I had to pause and write on a post note: “it’s the trap that women fall into - they try so hard to be “good” that they are not able to be who we actually are.” Substitute women for mothers to get even more specific and resonate.
There is a collective conscious awakening among women to these things and it feels good to be here. Please keep writing 🫶🏼
Ooo what a juicy quote! Thanks for sharing ❤️ and I’m so here for collective conscious awakening 🙌
I’m not sure what I believe about timing, coincidence or idiosyncrasies. BUT! I was reading “At the Root of This Longing” by Carol L. Flinders for the *first* time yesterday and this premise was with me all day. How deeply patriarchy entangles itself into everything... It’s inescapable. And the immense shame I’ve experienced trying to become more Christlike, destroying my ego, giving more when I had no sense of self, much less anything else, to give. I don’t know if have much of an ego to dissolve. I’ve always been a daughter, a sister, a wife, a mother- titles that are relational to someone else, usually a man. I’m just barely trying to create my own identity, my own ego.
I don’t have a god-complex because society has never treated me (or probably any woman) as someone who could do whatever I wanted with impunity. I’ve never had power to yield.
Call it whatever, perhaps there is a universal, energetic realization- a waking up- of women who want to be “good” and are given a list of things they already do (often to our own detriment). And the shame of seeing the list, knowing how hard we’re trying to do more of all those things, and STILL- still feeling like we’ll never get there, so we must be broken. If I try to dissolve my ego any more, will I completely disappear?
Is this the goal? For women to be pushed into nothingness by their desire to become divine (which in my experience is synonymous with “perfect”)? Are we so, so tired yet? I am.
But I’ll not go gentle...rage, rage...
Wow. Thank you for this Madison. It’s perfect. (Yes perfect 🙃) the patriarchy has weaseled its way into everything- I can so relate to everything you’ve said here
I also saw that TikTok and was so grateful to hear someone else express something similar to what I had been feeling. I was having a hard time hearing men teach about mindfulness and detachment with no examples of how to accomplish that when you are taking care of/ responsible for children who talk to you and need you incessantly. I started looking up how many of these teachers even had children. I felt like I needed to learn this stuff from women who understood my situation, but this broader conversation has me realizing I need a whole different curriculum.
A whole different curriculum. So true. Slightly overwhelming but true
This is resonating 100%. It makes sense. I have been listening to the 7 principles book on and off, and it’s good to have a reminder that it’s coming from a man. I’ve hit a few snags that really bothered me. One was the advice to only bring up a criticism/problem to your husband, if you as the wife can lead with the part you did wrong in the situation. So taking the blame even if you’ve done nothing wrong is recommended so that Men receive it better. We already accommodate men and get blame where we’ve done nothing wrong.
Oooooh I have a whole host of complaints about Gottman (starting with the unacknowledged patriarchal takes and def including the immense amount of divorce shame)
Celeste, can you write more about your experience with teaching the Gottman principles? Would love to read it!
Just adding one thought, oversimplifying it in the interest of minimizing my characteristic long-windedness: I feel these religious tools don't work that well for men, either---because they outsource the work to women. An unfortunate patriarchal partner to all the tools in the toolbox (dissolve the ego, practice compassion) is literally "But luckily, women are so good at that. Just marry a good enough woman and you won't have to try that hard." I have no daughters, just sons, and when this hit me as a younger mom, my world flipped over. --As you've stated, in business, in church, in school organizations, everywhere--the women are encouraged to (for instance) volunteer, endlessly. And men agree that's good and noble. But they literally outsource it to the women. (Who have been socially and otherwise indoctrinated that their willingness to carry others' burdens is how they prove their own worthiness.)
So even [most of] the men are not doing do their own work.
Oh my gosh! Soooo true! Thank you for pointing this out!!! The world runs on women’s free labor.
And I meant to start with thank you so much for this brilliant piece. I've appreciated your work and followed you for quite a while now---and while I haven't booked a session with you myself (yet), I've suggested you to a handful of likeminded seekers. <3
Thank you Mel!!
Yes!! Wow!! Yes, this! I was a devout Mormon until about 7 years ago. I don’t know if it was my mother or the fact that I grew up in Massachusetts where strong divine females were everywhere in my “ward” (what Mormons call a congregation), but I always had a strong desire to be powerful, follow my own passions, understand it’s okay to say no, be my own person, etc. I realize now I was taught to want these things by all these powerful women around me. But I always had a desperate desire to be good, and so when I was told at church as part of the standardized curriculum, to serve and be selfless and give, give, give (even when I could sense these strong women’s pushback), I was constantly trying to find a balance. I then went to Utah for college, and then spent most of my adult life raising my family there. Examples of degraded feminine are absolutely everywhere. EVERYWHERE. And so even though I pushed back at the idea of becoming that, and tried to maintain who I was, and pursue my gifts, and find my voice, etc., it was difficult AF, because I felt GUILTY ALL THE TIME. I’m not exaggerating. The voices in my head were constantly: “You should be serving more.” “You should be listening more.” “You should be bringing a casserole to that person.” “You should be babysitting that person’s kids.” “Sure, I can say no, but only after I’ve already said yes to these other things.” “That woman works too hard and serves too much, but how dare I think that? And how dare you think you’re good enough! You should be more like her!”
Of course, when I left the church, that guilt shifted to shame for awhile. I’m still working on that, and as I do, some of the guilt is shifting as well. But even as I transition to a different kind of spirituality, I’m finding a lot of the self-improvement veins of thought are preaching service and contribution. And I start to feel guilty again. Of course I want to contribute!! Of course I want to share my manifested millions!! But I’ve found that the more you preach to the choir, the more the choir feels like shit. The more they believe they’re not enough. So, thank you for this article. It was brilliant, and I’m taking it to heart.
“The more you preach to the choir, the more the choir feels like shit.” 👏👏 well said. And yes the church is degraded women on steroids so even slightly prioritizing your needs feels EXTREME. The guilt is so wild - you certainly aren’t alone
Holy cow, I have been trying to find the words to this idea for a decade! This was the wall I hit. Nothing felt like it was FOR me, or for any woman. None of it took out experiences or our needs into account. Thank you so much for compiling all these wonderful resources and wrapping them in your always beautiful and profound insights. Much love from Jasmine in Iowa City ❤️
Jasmine! Hi 👋 yes once you see it it’s impossible to unsee - none of it was ever made for us. So discouraging with a side of empowering.
A friend shared the premise of your essay with me, and I immediately downloaded substack to find it. This mirrors my reality EXACTLY. I feel emotional reading it - it’s so deeply validating. I could list 1,000 reasons and contexts and settings of life where this feels true to me. I, too, am seeking to promote this exact message. Thank you for writing this!
Thank you so much for telling me Chantel! It's wild how much this teaching is deeply resonate and validating to so many of us.
This is impressive and inspiring. I want to test something, not sure yet if it will hold. Could we go deeper and say that religion, as many of the institutions, serve the dominant group because they are/were created by the dominant. I would change masculine and feminine to dominant gender over historical marginalized gender.
A second thought, connecting these new concepts through allyship. Masculine (dominant) give up thyself in giving space, respecting boundaries and accepting different perspectives in the feminine (historically marginalized).
Interesting take Arturo - I think dominant/marginalized definitely is part of the puzzle - thanks for sharing!
Have you seen Bad Moms? That’s what this post made me think of, women choosing themselves and each other over what we are told we should be choosing. Great post!
I haven’t but I need to!
Once again you speak truth in a way that makes me able to hear it and anxious to practice it!
Wow this is everything. It’s so spot on. Thank you ❤️
Well, Celeste. You've done it again. I did not hear Elizabeth Gilbert's message, nor do I have TikTok, but I am so grateful that you brought this message to my inbox. This speaks directly to my inner knowing and heart. It's just so damn validating of my life's experience and gives me permission to help women in a different way as a therapist. Thank you for sharing your mind and heart with me!
Beyond thrilled to validate your life’s experience Liz 🥰
Such an interesting concept and I think I love it! Can tell I will be thinking and feeling this a lot in the days to come. Thanks for sharing Celeste!
I loved this and saved so many excerpts for future use. This sounds like a huge key to a missing vital piece. I would love to be in on the discussion to what this looks like more specifically in religious spheres. But I loved the whole thing. Thanks for breaking it down. It brings to mind how I made the decision to no longer see male doctors (unless I have to and they're like, the best--TBD). Because it seemed to me our biology was so different. Why would I see someone who has zero experience in, you know, a pretty crucial part of my make up? Already I am smarter than them in ways they can't even comprehend, and I'd really rather not have to explain to them what it's like to be female, as foundational background info, in order to receive treatment.
Celeste, yes, yes, yes!! This resonates so hard and has been an active avenue of inquiry since I moved on from three years of residency at a Zen temple last summer. I spent the subsequent fall strength training and doing mantras to build myself back up! It's a lot more complicated than that, of course, but I just wanted to say thank you for writing this and for such a crisp articulation of these massive themes. I'm taking a class right now about the sacred feminine in Buddhism and will be sharing with others. You really captured a lot with a little here. :)