This is it! Last year, as my marriage was beginning to implode with resentment and hostility bursting from the seams, we saw a counselor. Gottman was the only script, and it eventually became clear to me how superficial and ineffective this method was for us. My resentment grew to include the counselor and his generic band-aid for the bullet wound to my female humanity. I felt deeply there was something so very wrong with the approach but which I could not define. And felt shame for even questioning. Thank you for the unraveling and the validation I needed. My soul is healing.
For me too! My husband and I are working through this now - after 30 years together I just could not take it anymore (the resentment and unhappiness burst at the seams). Ensuring that he reads this essay as part of his therapy and healing.
I have heard so many times, “men want respect and women want love” but when I search my soul my deepest desire is to be respected. For my words to matter and my experiences and knowing to hold weight. So many scripts written about staying in our assigned boxes.
Another thought I had as I read your article and I thought of the way so many men feel about feminine qualities was “How can you really respect certain qualities in others that make you feel contempt when you see them in yourself?”
How can women actually BE loved if they aren't respected? Also, how good are men going to feel if they have so called respect but aren't loved? So much pop psychology nonsense out there. Like people can't make you feel a certain way, that's on you. BS!
On the other side of this as a man. As I read more in this realm (including hooks and Real, both great), I find that I need a mix of the different counter-scripts, or to sit interpreting a line for a while before I get how it applies to me. It seems to me that men and women are messier than the things society wants to force them to be, and so respond to these scripts in a whole bunch of idiosyncratic ways.
Wonderful piece. I would add a couple of hurdles. Men are actively taught NOT to take others' needs seriously, especially women and children. They are taught not to show softer feelings but to prioritize their own feelings at all costs, pretending that their needs and preferences are somehow just "logical" and "reasonable." Men and women are BOTH socialized to prioritize the man's preferences, demands, and feelings. Men are taught not to ask for help, but women are socialized to Intuit men's preferences and needs, creating a vicious circle where she is constantly catering to his needs without him even knowing she is doing so. As a result, if a woman asks for help, a man will see that as her being selfish or demanding: "Hey, * I * never ask her to do things around the house. She must do it because she likes it. And when she asks me for something she is being more demanding than I would ever be."
And on and on. The idea that marriage problems can be solved without addressing these deeply socialized dynamics is ridiculous (and I would argue, such marriage advice is, intentionally or not, designed to prop up patriarchy even more by keeping her wheels spinning).
This is all SO true- thanks for writing it all out Heather- esp this part: “a vicious cycle where she is constantly catering to his needs without him even knowing she is doing so.” SO TRUE
Does this strike a little too close to home for you? Do an experiment, pay very close attention to whether/how and how much a woman in your life is automatically making it easier for you. Does she anticipate your needs so you don't have to name them? Do you do the same in fully reciprocal fashion for her? If the answers are yes and no respectively, pay attention. 2/3 of divorce is initiated by women. there's a reason.
I got married in the mid 1990s and remember thinking about his experiments in my first few years of marriage. I actually tried to make sure I was adhering to the 5:1 ratio, and trying to go beyond that. I would imagine Gottman sitting next to my husband and I at dinner and counting the positives to negatives, and deciding whether we were headed for divorce or not.
Recently, my husband was talking about how his mother used to say, "Why am I everyone's punching bag?" and my daughter responded with, "That sounds like the kind of thing mom would say." I thought, hey, that's not fair. I've never said that! I've held back from saying that for 30 years! But obviously, my resentment had come through.
I loved seeing Gottman's work reframed through a systemic patriarchal lens. Thank you!! What a great read.
Here's the problem....WAY too often it's one sided with those 5:1 ratios. Too many therapists are telling women they need to show acts of gratitude and praise and that will change their marriages except far far too often, the men do NOT reciprocate on their own. They often have to be told they also need to do that. Honestly, if the therapists I have in mind who did a whole Facebook thing were wanting to make a real difference, they'd be telling all the MEN to do those things because usually then women would do the same because they would feel seen, heard and appreciated. Doesn't work the same in both directions too often.
Thank you! Clarity for both sexes. I feel too much anti patriarchy commentary runs the risk of demonizing men who are hurt by the same system. It's so helpful to have more examples for how to frame this for everyone's benefit! As a mother of a boy and a girl, I'm searching for tools to help them both thrive.
Agreed! Celeste, I appreciate that you are unflinching in calling out patriarchy, but also try to provide a way out of patriarchy for both women and men.
Teach your boy a whole menu of emotions with the vocabulary and the freedom to name them and feel them both. Teach your girl to be assertive, to not apologize for being herself and to go after her dreams and showcase her talents with the same gusto as the boys are encouraged to do. Help your boy cry and talk about what it means to him. Help your girl to recognize that NO is a complete sentence. You are right that both genders are harmed by both sides of the indoctrination to the "male" and "female" sides of the seesaw. When we don't teach men all the emotions they only have anger to fall back on. When we don't teach women that they are allowed to be angry too it comes out sideways.
Wow. Knocked it out of the park again. I actually read the Gottman book right before I got married the second time as sort of a post-mortem on marriage #1. There is almost no advice for anyone getting married a second time. You’re not supposed to be doing that. Also, I understand that defensiveness is not helpful and that had 💯 been me. But I didn’t see what strategy would have actually worked with a partner who was critical, and eventually contemptuous and stone-walling.
I feel like some of what Gottman really misses is that nothing outweighs actual compatibility and that has nothing to do with a basis of friendship, at least it did not for me.
As a man, and a therapist working mostly with men, I couldn’t agree more with you on all of this. Thank you for putting language to this. Your work and words here are a gift!
Standing ovation for this essay (and for Note 4 in particular).
I would add that “forgiveness” is like “communication” - something advised equally to men and women but mistaken in what it can accomplish. It can’t help a marriage when the fundamentals you describe go unaddressed.
Yes, divorce is even more loving than staying in a bad marriage - even for kids. When a friend passed me a research article on that point, my last prejudice against divorce dissolved, and I started to repair mine and my kids’ lives from the myth that a mother must devote her life to fixing a marriage for the kids’ sake. May no one fall for that rot again.
PS - One of the coauthors of the article I read about the impact of marital conflict on kids (worse than divorce) is on Substack. Dr. Jennifer Weaver recently came to the platform. She writes about motherhood at “Identity: Maternal.”
🙌🏻! … interesting though as a women conitinioned in a conservative Christian home, I identified with both of the unhealthy feminine and masculine traits…. For example I am working on clearing the idea that I am expected to do it all and asking for help feels weak…
Preach! The former CEO at my company got really into Gottman and during one meeting he showed us video footage of couples interacting, which Gottman filmed (with the couples' permission!) to learn more about what makes a successful marriage. Anyway, the insights Gottman gleaned from this footage were supposed to help us interact more effectively and authentically with our coworkers.
And yes, there were some good insights, but there was one huge and obvious insight that neither Gottman nor my CEO even seemed to notice. In *every single video*, the man was sitting down or lying down engaging in a leisure activity and the wife was standing up doing something around the house. I was like, "Um, can we please talk about THAT?!"
I love those graphics and realizing that balancing act explains so much of what’s happening behind the scenes in relationships. And how have I never heard that Terry Real quote “Maturity is when we care for our inner child rather than inflict them on our partner”? So many ah-ha moments in this piece! Love it
Probably the best text of you. Good advice. This affects male male friendships too. You can’t befriend all the time stoic people it gets boring. Like caring for male friends is also good
This reminds me so much of Joseph Campbell's response when asked about women and the Hero's Journey: "“Women don’t need to make the journey. In the whole mythological journey, the woman is there. All she has to do is realize that she’s the place that people are trying to get to." Our journeys are not the same, our patterns of growth are not the same.
I have leaned all my life toward my supposedly "masculine" side, setting boundaries and making other people annoyed and uncomfortable when I express my needs honestly. Could be why although I have been engaged twice, I have never married. The happiest couples I know at any age are those who have "thrown out the script" about what they are supposed to do to be happy with their partner. You could also have mentioned that a wedding and then marriage is a new "start line" in a relationship, not the finish line. Thanks for these insights based on your research about what is "supposed" to work in marriage.
A kiwi from NZ, married mid90s, here; what a great read! Nearly 30 years ago I read The Dance of Anger, and Boundaries by Cloud and Townsend. Both were excellent for newly married me and far better and healthier for our marriage than any of the other dross (which I also read and then had to painfully unlearn). Unfortunately NZ has imported US-style Christianity with its purity culture and rigid gendered expectations, which has done untold harm. Love your framing with the pic of how cultural expectations "pull" at us!
This is it! Last year, as my marriage was beginning to implode with resentment and hostility bursting from the seams, we saw a counselor. Gottman was the only script, and it eventually became clear to me how superficial and ineffective this method was for us. My resentment grew to include the counselor and his generic band-aid for the bullet wound to my female humanity. I felt deeply there was something so very wrong with the approach but which I could not define. And felt shame for even questioning. Thank you for the unraveling and the validation I needed. My soul is healing.
For me too! My husband and I are working through this now - after 30 years together I just could not take it anymore (the resentment and unhappiness burst at the seams). Ensuring that he reads this essay as part of his therapy and healing.
I have heard so many times, “men want respect and women want love” but when I search my soul my deepest desire is to be respected. For my words to matter and my experiences and knowing to hold weight. So many scripts written about staying in our assigned boxes.
Another thought I had as I read your article and I thought of the way so many men feel about feminine qualities was “How can you really respect certain qualities in others that make you feel contempt when you see them in yourself?”
Great thoughts Amanda. Yes we are told that it is men who need respect but I share your deep desire for respect too.
How can women actually BE loved if they aren't respected? Also, how good are men going to feel if they have so called respect but aren't loved? So much pop psychology nonsense out there. Like people can't make you feel a certain way, that's on you. BS!
On the other side of this as a man. As I read more in this realm (including hooks and Real, both great), I find that I need a mix of the different counter-scripts, or to sit interpreting a line for a while before I get how it applies to me. It seems to me that men and women are messier than the things society wants to force them to be, and so respond to these scripts in a whole bunch of idiosyncratic ways.
Wonderful piece. I would add a couple of hurdles. Men are actively taught NOT to take others' needs seriously, especially women and children. They are taught not to show softer feelings but to prioritize their own feelings at all costs, pretending that their needs and preferences are somehow just "logical" and "reasonable." Men and women are BOTH socialized to prioritize the man's preferences, demands, and feelings. Men are taught not to ask for help, but women are socialized to Intuit men's preferences and needs, creating a vicious circle where she is constantly catering to his needs without him even knowing she is doing so. As a result, if a woman asks for help, a man will see that as her being selfish or demanding: "Hey, * I * never ask her to do things around the house. She must do it because she likes it. And when she asks me for something she is being more demanding than I would ever be."
And on and on. The idea that marriage problems can be solved without addressing these deeply socialized dynamics is ridiculous (and I would argue, such marriage advice is, intentionally or not, designed to prop up patriarchy even more by keeping her wheels spinning).
This is all SO true- thanks for writing it all out Heather- esp this part: “a vicious cycle where she is constantly catering to his needs without him even knowing she is doing so.” SO TRUE
Comments like this are why trump won.
Why do you think it’s ok to make sweeping negative generalisations about a sex class?
Nick instead of getting defensive I would encourage you to lean in, listen and try to see the world from a different perspective than your own.
Does this strike a little too close to home for you? Do an experiment, pay very close attention to whether/how and how much a woman in your life is automatically making it easier for you. Does she anticipate your needs so you don't have to name them? Do you do the same in fully reciprocal fashion for her? If the answers are yes and no respectively, pay attention. 2/3 of divorce is initiated by women. there's a reason.
Oh, this is so relatable, Heather! Thank you for articulating this even further!
I got married in the mid 1990s and remember thinking about his experiments in my first few years of marriage. I actually tried to make sure I was adhering to the 5:1 ratio, and trying to go beyond that. I would imagine Gottman sitting next to my husband and I at dinner and counting the positives to negatives, and deciding whether we were headed for divorce or not.
Recently, my husband was talking about how his mother used to say, "Why am I everyone's punching bag?" and my daughter responded with, "That sounds like the kind of thing mom would say." I thought, hey, that's not fair. I've never said that! I've held back from saying that for 30 years! But obviously, my resentment had come through.
I loved seeing Gottman's work reframed through a systemic patriarchal lens. Thank you!! What a great read.
Not an invisible Gottman at the dinner table tallying your positive interactions 🫣🫣🫣 😂 😂 Relatable.
Here's the problem....WAY too often it's one sided with those 5:1 ratios. Too many therapists are telling women they need to show acts of gratitude and praise and that will change their marriages except far far too often, the men do NOT reciprocate on their own. They often have to be told they also need to do that. Honestly, if the therapists I have in mind who did a whole Facebook thing were wanting to make a real difference, they'd be telling all the MEN to do those things because usually then women would do the same because they would feel seen, heard and appreciated. Doesn't work the same in both directions too often.
Thank you! Clarity for both sexes. I feel too much anti patriarchy commentary runs the risk of demonizing men who are hurt by the same system. It's so helpful to have more examples for how to frame this for everyone's benefit! As a mother of a boy and a girl, I'm searching for tools to help them both thrive.
Agreed! Celeste, I appreciate that you are unflinching in calling out patriarchy, but also try to provide a way out of patriarchy for both women and men.
Teach your boy a whole menu of emotions with the vocabulary and the freedom to name them and feel them both. Teach your girl to be assertive, to not apologize for being herself and to go after her dreams and showcase her talents with the same gusto as the boys are encouraged to do. Help your boy cry and talk about what it means to him. Help your girl to recognize that NO is a complete sentence. You are right that both genders are harmed by both sides of the indoctrination to the "male" and "female" sides of the seesaw. When we don't teach men all the emotions they only have anger to fall back on. When we don't teach women that they are allowed to be angry too it comes out sideways.
Wow. Knocked it out of the park again. I actually read the Gottman book right before I got married the second time as sort of a post-mortem on marriage #1. There is almost no advice for anyone getting married a second time. You’re not supposed to be doing that. Also, I understand that defensiveness is not helpful and that had 💯 been me. But I didn’t see what strategy would have actually worked with a partner who was critical, and eventually contemptuous and stone-walling.
I feel like some of what Gottman really misses is that nothing outweighs actual compatibility and that has nothing to do with a basis of friendship, at least it did not for me.
The not supposed to be married twice is so ironic since Julie is John's second wife.
As a man, and a therapist working mostly with men, I couldn’t agree more with you on all of this. Thank you for putting language to this. Your work and words here are a gift!
Standing ovation for this essay (and for Note 4 in particular).
I would add that “forgiveness” is like “communication” - something advised equally to men and women but mistaken in what it can accomplish. It can’t help a marriage when the fundamentals you describe go unaddressed.
Yes, divorce is even more loving than staying in a bad marriage - even for kids. When a friend passed me a research article on that point, my last prejudice against divorce dissolved, and I started to repair mine and my kids’ lives from the myth that a mother must devote her life to fixing a marriage for the kids’ sake. May no one fall for that rot again.
Keep singing your song of truth, Celeste.
PS - One of the coauthors of the article I read about the impact of marital conflict on kids (worse than divorce) is on Substack. Dr. Jennifer Weaver recently came to the platform. She writes about motherhood at “Identity: Maternal.”
🙌🏻! … interesting though as a women conitinioned in a conservative Christian home, I identified with both of the unhealthy feminine and masculine traits…. For example I am working on clearing the idea that I am expected to do it all and asking for help feels weak…
Preach! The former CEO at my company got really into Gottman and during one meeting he showed us video footage of couples interacting, which Gottman filmed (with the couples' permission!) to learn more about what makes a successful marriage. Anyway, the insights Gottman gleaned from this footage were supposed to help us interact more effectively and authentically with our coworkers.
And yes, there were some good insights, but there was one huge and obvious insight that neither Gottman nor my CEO even seemed to notice. In *every single video*, the man was sitting down or lying down engaging in a leisure activity and the wife was standing up doing something around the house. I was like, "Um, can we please talk about THAT?!"
I love those graphics and realizing that balancing act explains so much of what’s happening behind the scenes in relationships. And how have I never heard that Terry Real quote “Maturity is when we care for our inner child rather than inflict them on our partner”? So many ah-ha moments in this piece! Love it
This is well-written and very insightful.
Probably the best text of you. Good advice. This affects male male friendships too. You can’t befriend all the time stoic people it gets boring. Like caring for male friends is also good
This reminds me so much of Joseph Campbell's response when asked about women and the Hero's Journey: "“Women don’t need to make the journey. In the whole mythological journey, the woman is there. All she has to do is realize that she’s the place that people are trying to get to." Our journeys are not the same, our patterns of growth are not the same.
I have leaned all my life toward my supposedly "masculine" side, setting boundaries and making other people annoyed and uncomfortable when I express my needs honestly. Could be why although I have been engaged twice, I have never married. The happiest couples I know at any age are those who have "thrown out the script" about what they are supposed to do to be happy with their partner. You could also have mentioned that a wedding and then marriage is a new "start line" in a relationship, not the finish line. Thanks for these insights based on your research about what is "supposed" to work in marriage.
A kiwi from NZ, married mid90s, here; what a great read! Nearly 30 years ago I read The Dance of Anger, and Boundaries by Cloud and Townsend. Both were excellent for newly married me and far better and healthier for our marriage than any of the other dross (which I also read and then had to painfully unlearn). Unfortunately NZ has imported US-style Christianity with its purity culture and rigid gendered expectations, which has done untold harm. Love your framing with the pic of how cultural expectations "pull" at us!
“Unfortunately NZ has imported US-style Christianity with its purity culture and rigid gendered expectations.”
This is nonsense.