For me, it’s the week in bed from exhaustion that I can’t stop thinking about. I’m so confused why Daniel shared that. Is it a badge of honor that she literally runs herself into the ground? Is he proving a point that they have no help in the house? In my opinion, that’s such an obvious red flag, like something is wrong if Hannah is sick from exhaustion for a week regularly. And do we think Daniel takes a week off from the farm to step in? Doubt it. He missed one of his children’s births because he was working.
I see her because I’ve fantasized about being sick so I can take a couple days off. Is being sick from exhaustion her only break? Why do we insist on praising women for giving literally everything?
I think they probably went into this interview anxious to de-bunk their most common criticism: that they have hidden help. My take was Daniel’s comment was to prove how hard she works — so hard she has to spend a week in bed!
And that was my next thought too Katie- that’s probably her one and only time to be alone. 😭
I also wonder if her week long in bed from exhaustion is actually depression, but she doesn't realize it. Not being able to get out of bed? I know lots of people who are deep in depression have that exact symptom. And if she's basically being run into the ground and not getting any help... It doesn't seem too far fetched that such a result would occur.
I love what you point out. I agree that exmormon women struggle just as much. It’s an ongoing struggle in my marriage. Wanting more, being grateful that he does good, but also seeing the way I’ve been shortchanged. My inability to stand up for myself and demand help, because I catch myself feeling programmed to think “he had a long hard day, I can’t ask more” even as I’m in the trenches of post partum and drowning in children and trying to maintain everything else that keeps a family running while keeping up my career. It’s so damn hard. And I think so many exmormon women perhaps found it most triggering because we can see ourselves in Hannah, at least a little.
Celeste I love your thoughts on this article. As a Mormon woman trying to navigate all the challenges and obstacles I have experienced over the years I need your Ex-Mormon perspective so I can be engaged with my life in a healthy way. I value your perspectives knowing you understand and have a lot of love towards women and the human race. Thank you.
The last part of your article where you invite us to open up to both/and will have me pondering all day as I skip church and lay in bed and rest from pure exhaustion. ❤️
This write up of the ballerina farm article and consideration of Hannah’s perspective is spot on. As a woman who has been shaped by over 25 years of Mormon marriage, it’s just so much. The core problem in engaging meaningfully with my husband about the expectations and impacts in our marriage, is that Mormon male niceness includes not having real understanding of or interest in emotions and thoughts that go with them. To have the necessary conversations requires so much reading and translation on my part, it’s daunting to say the least. He is hands on, he is hard working, he is dedicated to living as he believes, and came from a very traditional and low communication family. I think that the ultimate shield covering nice Mormon men is that they have been protected from seeing the impact of patriarchy. They have a hard time learning about it or believing its impact, since the language necessary to describe that reality is completely foreign and unbelievable to them.
Okay, I see what you mean about how you can’t stop thinking about the article because I am back again to comment. Again.
I feel like we need to talk about the way the son is following in dad’s footsteps, contradicting mom. As an ex-Mormon woman whose adult sons exhibit similar behaviors, I can’t get it out of my mind. In my case, being in a happy marriage later to a man who did nearly all the cooking and cleaning and who treated me with love and respect has not seemed to do much to counter that early example. The silencing of women and ignoring their truth and reality.
Oooooh are you talking about the follow up article the original author came out with?? That quote of the son contradicting his mom over and over sent up all my inner red flags 😬😬😬
Oh, I think you are right. I went directly from your substack to google and actually read the follow up first. They are both chilling. I wish it didn’t remind me of my own sons. 😥
Love your perspective as a non-Mormon woman. You speak to all women and give words to our thoughts. If you ever what to lead a virtual book club, I’ll be the first to sign up and pay. Even organize it;) Now off to read more about god-sip and share my thoughts about your thought provoking thoughts with my late 40s/Early 50s non Mormon moms and wives in my tribe.
As soon as I read this article I looked forward to what your take would be.
You hit the nail on the head with Mormon boys being very “nice”. They’re often passive aggressive and quietly exert their dominance, in a very “nice guy” way.
I used to purposefully defer to my husband to look like a good wife, because I felt like that was what I should do. After leaving the church I don’t feel that urge.
Ok, the line about the “nice guy” persona acting like a blindfold to the insidious nature of Patriarchal/mormon marriages. Celeste, that took my breath away. It’s everything. It’s exactly why myself and so many other women are undermined when we try to speak about what going wrong in our lives. It’s why our husbands feel entitled to dismiss our concerns: bc they’re just being so nice as to alleviate us from the burden of accuracy. Don’t worry darling, it’s all in your head.
Then she would not be “not speaking ill of the Lord’s anointed”. The don’t talk, don’t tell controversial things and put your shoulder to the wheel mentality has a way of conditioning people not to speak up when one should. It makes it so a person doesn’t even know she/he should.
I have a feeling you hit the nail on the head with the many complex ways in which Hannah must be feeling post-article. I can’t help but hope this lights a flame of advocating for herself more.
I really appreciate your perspective here. I don’t follow ballerina farm and only really know about Hannah neeleman because of Sara Petersen and Jo piazza.
That said, when I read/listened to their takes, the marriage felt low key abusive.
And maybe it is. Who’s to know.
But I think you do a really good job of giving Hannah a bit of the voice she didn’t get to share in the article (and probably wouldn’t have as it’s too personal and revealing). The both/and that you close with is really useful.
Re footnote 6: I don’t think the fact they agreed to not speak ill of each other is unrelated to him being an actual goat turd 🙃. This ballerina farm article was so heartbreaking for me and I need all the Christian women ballerina farm wannabes to understand the context this woman is living in. Which, if I remember correctly, you’ve already written about?
Yes! That’s what I hope the result of this article will be - that young women viewing Hannah’s life as the perfect life will start to think twice. And yes I talk about that in my Harrison Butker article 😊
For me, it’s the week in bed from exhaustion that I can’t stop thinking about. I’m so confused why Daniel shared that. Is it a badge of honor that she literally runs herself into the ground? Is he proving a point that they have no help in the house? In my opinion, that’s such an obvious red flag, like something is wrong if Hannah is sick from exhaustion for a week regularly. And do we think Daniel takes a week off from the farm to step in? Doubt it. He missed one of his children’s births because he was working.
I see her because I’ve fantasized about being sick so I can take a couple days off. Is being sick from exhaustion her only break? Why do we insist on praising women for giving literally everything?
I think they probably went into this interview anxious to de-bunk their most common criticism: that they have hidden help. My take was Daniel’s comment was to prove how hard she works — so hard she has to spend a week in bed!
And that was my next thought too Katie- that’s probably her one and only time to be alone. 😭
I also wonder if her week long in bed from exhaustion is actually depression, but she doesn't realize it. Not being able to get out of bed? I know lots of people who are deep in depression have that exact symptom. And if she's basically being run into the ground and not getting any help... It doesn't seem too far fetched that such a result would occur.
I love what you point out. I agree that exmormon women struggle just as much. It’s an ongoing struggle in my marriage. Wanting more, being grateful that he does good, but also seeing the way I’ve been shortchanged. My inability to stand up for myself and demand help, because I catch myself feeling programmed to think “he had a long hard day, I can’t ask more” even as I’m in the trenches of post partum and drowning in children and trying to maintain everything else that keeps a family running while keeping up my career. It’s so damn hard. And I think so many exmormon women perhaps found it most triggering because we can see ourselves in Hannah, at least a little.
Yes yes yes yes yes - all of this!! It’s programmed in so deep.
Celeste I love your thoughts on this article. As a Mormon woman trying to navigate all the challenges and obstacles I have experienced over the years I need your Ex-Mormon perspective so I can be engaged with my life in a healthy way. I value your perspectives knowing you understand and have a lot of love towards women and the human race. Thank you.
The last part of your article where you invite us to open up to both/and will have me pondering all day as I skip church and lay in bed and rest from pure exhaustion. ❤️
Rest well Jamee ❤️❤️❤️❤️
This write up of the ballerina farm article and consideration of Hannah’s perspective is spot on. As a woman who has been shaped by over 25 years of Mormon marriage, it’s just so much. The core problem in engaging meaningfully with my husband about the expectations and impacts in our marriage, is that Mormon male niceness includes not having real understanding of or interest in emotions and thoughts that go with them. To have the necessary conversations requires so much reading and translation on my part, it’s daunting to say the least. He is hands on, he is hard working, he is dedicated to living as he believes, and came from a very traditional and low communication family. I think that the ultimate shield covering nice Mormon men is that they have been protected from seeing the impact of patriarchy. They have a hard time learning about it or believing its impact, since the language necessary to describe that reality is completely foreign and unbelievable to them.
YESSSS!!! Natalie! Perfectly said: “their ultimate shield is that they have been protected from seeing the impact of patriarchy” a million times yes!
Oof, yes. I feel that.
Okay, I see what you mean about how you can’t stop thinking about the article because I am back again to comment. Again.
I feel like we need to talk about the way the son is following in dad’s footsteps, contradicting mom. As an ex-Mormon woman whose adult sons exhibit similar behaviors, I can’t get it out of my mind. In my case, being in a happy marriage later to a man who did nearly all the cooking and cleaning and who treated me with love and respect has not seemed to do much to counter that early example. The silencing of women and ignoring their truth and reality.
Oooooh are you talking about the follow up article the original author came out with?? That quote of the son contradicting his mom over and over sent up all my inner red flags 😬😬😬
Oh, I think you are right. I went directly from your substack to google and actually read the follow up first. They are both chilling. I wish it didn’t remind me of my own sons. 😥
Love your perspective as a non-Mormon woman. You speak to all women and give words to our thoughts. If you ever what to lead a virtual book club, I’ll be the first to sign up and pay. Even organize it;) Now off to read more about god-sip and share my thoughts about your thought provoking thoughts with my late 40s/Early 50s non Mormon moms and wives in my tribe.
Aw thanks Jessica! I really am wanting to start a virtual book club!!
Ditto on the virtual book club!
Oh Celeste, you always say it perfectly.
As soon as I read this article I looked forward to what your take would be.
You hit the nail on the head with Mormon boys being very “nice”. They’re often passive aggressive and quietly exert their dominance, in a very “nice guy” way.
I used to purposefully defer to my husband to look like a good wife, because I felt like that was what I should do. After leaving the church I don’t feel that urge.
Big same!
Ok, the line about the “nice guy” persona acting like a blindfold to the insidious nature of Patriarchal/mormon marriages. Celeste, that took my breath away. It’s everything. It’s exactly why myself and so many other women are undermined when we try to speak about what going wrong in our lives. It’s why our husbands feel entitled to dismiss our concerns: bc they’re just being so nice as to alleviate us from the burden of accuracy. Don’t worry darling, it’s all in your head.
Ugh I could cry.
Yes. I can’t do any harm, I’m so nice. It’s all in your head.
Yes, such a good guy… I don’t do so many things so many me do… 🤣 you should hear the things I hear at work from men = I’m a good one 😆
So many men*
Then she would not be “not speaking ill of the Lord’s anointed”. The don’t talk, don’t tell controversial things and put your shoulder to the wheel mentality has a way of conditioning people not to speak up when one should. It makes it so a person doesn’t even know she/he should.
💯💯
The part about the invisible being seen. Felt like a breath of fresh air.
I have a feeling you hit the nail on the head with the many complex ways in which Hannah must be feeling post-article. I can’t help but hope this lights a flame of advocating for herself more.
I’m crossing my fingers for her 🤞🤞🤞
“It can be beyond frustrating to try to point out the insidiousness harm of Mormon patriarchy to those who just don’t see it.”
Yes!!
I really appreciate your perspective here. I don’t follow ballerina farm and only really know about Hannah neeleman because of Sara Petersen and Jo piazza.
That said, when I read/listened to their takes, the marriage felt low key abusive.
And maybe it is. Who’s to know.
But I think you do a really good job of giving Hannah a bit of the voice she didn’t get to share in the article (and probably wouldn’t have as it’s too personal and revealing). The both/and that you close with is really useful.
As a public service fostered by gossip, I’d like to know who the goat turd is. 😅
😂😂😂 just a former neighbor of mine who was in his early 20s, in his married student ward bishopric, cocky as all get out and controlling as heck.
You’ve described 80% of bishopric members in student wards 😂
It really messes with them- there should be a study
Re footnote 6: I don’t think the fact they agreed to not speak ill of each other is unrelated to him being an actual goat turd 🙃. This ballerina farm article was so heartbreaking for me and I need all the Christian women ballerina farm wannabes to understand the context this woman is living in. Which, if I remember correctly, you’ve already written about?
Yes! That’s what I hope the result of this article will be - that young women viewing Hannah’s life as the perfect life will start to think twice. And yes I talk about that in my Harrison Butker article 😊
I just read the article. Boy is triggered the word. Oof.
Big oof