I loved this article on the title alone- and the rest didn’t disappoint! Britney Spears is an excellent example of a young woman walking that needle’s edge being everything the patriarchy wants (virginal and hot and talented) and still got completely screwed over. There’s no winning, so fuck it. Don’t erase yourself. Seize your sexuality and independence with a cheeky wink a la Sabrina Carpenter. And if you can add in some Pink or Rhianna level of zero fucks go piss into the wind attitude, go for it.
I think that's a super problematic conclusion. Both tropes are massively reductive. I don't have a whole lot of hope for pop music but hopefully, parents can fill those gaps with nuanced conversations about what healthy relationships (with romantic partners, close friends, and ourselves) look like. Our ability to have them is imperative.
Mindless, fun, catchy music will always have an audience. Regardless of whether or not it's deep, there is always a message of some kind which can either be something damaging or positive. Hopefully, we'll at least move towards the latter 🤷🏼♀️
Yes. I get it. Because I’m a musician. I know that people crave the kind of music that lifts the spirit- that all going to be built upon major chords and bumping rhythms… but levity in lyric doesn’t have to kiss ass to systems that keep us in chains. I’m developing my sound studio with an eye towards subtle social work.
I love the idea of subtle social work. I can proudly say that I've never given a penny to keep pop music alive (and I've seen a fair amount of live music) and that I was listening to Joni Mitchell in the 90s when my peers were listening to boy bands and Spice Girls 😅
I think it sounds like we have had more interesting musical journeys than those who just follow the current trend. I feel like music saved my life on multiple occasions. Music has been my best friend all of my life, and the most fun one… because it has always deepened my experience and my understanding of humanity. I love Joni Mitchell— my favorite Joni performance is when she sang Coyote with The Band for their Last Waltz concert. Great poet and musician.
I spent the 90s dedicated to Janis. I was absolutely in love with her— still am. “Don’t turn your back on love… get it while you can…’ allowed me to accept love and have a beautiful life with three children. My youngest completes high school on Saturday— we homeschooled the last two years. Writing, cooking, and learning how to make music with digital instrumentation. I prefer the real instruments, but have mastered none. But — at least now I am returning to my inner child’s original plan. I’m here to make music. I’ve always known that… just gathering courage and prepping like someone anticipating the end of the world could be postponed by a rockin’ dance party.
I’m interested to hear more about this point you’ve made.
I’m not sure if what I’m adding here even contributes anything to your point, I just wondered and wanted to understand because I think these women have to choose patriarchy along with their compliance in their celebrity career
but Pink liked Johnny Depp in her youth (but I think she was embarrassed when the bros exposed this via a surprise talk show meeting) and apparently Rihanna is quite the misogynist (even lyrics sometimes suggest this?)
I honestly don’t know why this is easier for me to do than what I need to be doing 😅😓
Well, the challenge with celebrities is you never completely know them and may support someone abhorrent (speaking as a former Depp and Gaiman fan…) out of ignorance. We also change as we mature and learn. So with those caveats out of the way:
In addition to her music, two things Rihanna did stuck with me. When asked about what she wore on her first red carpet, her answer was “I dunno, young and stupid?” That’s a non-standard answer and shows a blunt acknowledgement of how much she has learned (combined with a challenge to show compassion to her younger self, a personal struggle that resonates). The second thing that hit me was her superbowl performance. She didn’t even try to lip sync. Her vibe was very much so “can’t be arsed to play this game by your rules, check it out I’m pregnant”. Loved it.
Pink was my favourite in junior high. I wasn’t a Britney or Christina fan (those loves came later). She has from the beginning managed to somehow succeed despite refusing to be young-cute-sexy at a time when I would have thought that impossible. And she changed her lyrics to a song that referenced Britney when she found out what Britney went through, which was total class.
Now Sabrina is doing the young-cute-sexy thing, and seems to be doing it for herself (and in my opinion trolling the patriarchy while doing so - why else would she dress in an outfit a cartoon bunny wore?)
So to me all 3 have figured out how to navigate their fame on their own terms, and in very different ways from different decades. I admire them for those traits and if I had a daughter would hope that she might learn to navigate her world in her way, figuring out which rules to break, and come through intact. Because following all the rules would break her. That is guaranteed.
You should educated yourself better and watch the Depp trial in its entirety. If you choose to ignore evidence, because it goes against your belief system that men can't be victims as well and even being ridiculed for it (Three direct quotes from Amber Heard: "Tell the World, Johnny, tell then I Johnny Depp, a man, I'm a victim too of domestic violence.. and see how many people believe or side with you", "I f**kinf was hitting you", "I can't promise I won't get physical again. God I f**king get so mad sometimes I loose it".
The male victim, Johnny Depp, has STILL people not believing him because of his gender and because he wasn't a perfect victim due to his substance abuse.
So either f**king inform yourself or don't talk about something you have absolutely zero idea of!
Oh here we go. Yes, they hit *each other*. Funny how Heard seems to be the only one taking the heat over that, despite how openly Depp spent decades battling substance abuse where he acknowledged behaving violently on whatever his drug of choice was at any given time.
Don't start with this. The pair of them are toxic, and toxic to each other.
NO THEY DID NOT HIT EACH OTHER ffs. Educate yourself!
She was the physical one and gaslighted him into admitting to "hurting her on the head" when he tried to flee from her and hide in the bathroom! It is one tape!
In a lot of ways I think it's important for women to reject BOTH sides of the "whore" and "good girl" false dichotomy. Just be a woman. And no we don't need to do it with a wink and a nod to playing the "whore" or with any indulgence toward playing the "good girl". Burn both straightjackets, please. Don't think we can play dress up with them and not have it cost much more in terms of progress than the temporary fun'n'games or personal social benefits of playing around with the theme of either "whore" or "good girl" get us. The men jacking off and jacking us up while taking away our healthcare don't care if you wink and nod at it. They just look at the performance (either one, whore or good girl) and grab the nearest girl or young woman they want compliant (either to the whore or good girl role) and say there, look at that. That's what you are. And while most don't believe it, and maybe most see the wink and nod and "get it", some do just take it in. There's always some who do, too many, and I was one, and most of the girls I knew growing up were too.
We were "trailer trash" and didn't really have a lot of esteem. I think women who grew up as girls with a more secure home life can get a way with winking and nodding and playing with these stereotypical roles it in a way those who grow up lacking can't. Whether lacking means poorer in funds or poorer in way you're treated when young, or both.
Basically -- It's SO much easier to play "whore" or "good girl" and then wink and stand up and say noooo actually you have agency and esteem and power. To put away the costume and get off the stage unscathed. Meanwhile... When you really might actually have to run away from your fucked up home at 15 and get listed on backpage... when you might actually grow up dreaming of vowing to submit to your husband just as he submits to god and get up in a white dress and getting married as soon as you can and obeying him, because that's for real what you're taught... when it's not just a costume and a game... you do kinda start to resent later, when you wake up and get yourself out, the pop culture fluff around it all. The false glamor and $$$ careers built on selling it. Not just for the ladies of pop but the people, including many a big salary man, in the industries behind it.
I don't like what either woman the article is about feels the need to produce culturally. I don't view them as villains though, just as people, as women. Women both probably richer than I'll ever be, and I do view both basically as sellouts, but ya know. That's not villainy any more than me when I clock my 9-5 at a place I don't think benefits society one iota and mostly just exists to churn out its crap. It's not good either, of course, and at every opportunity I will strive to contribute to a world without any of this. With something better. But I get it. People want to get a secure life. And maybe both of these artists genuinely connect to what they're selling. Sad if so to me but I can also understand that.
If there were any regressive stereotype I do think women could stand to embrace more it's hag. Where's the 20 something hag pop? Please link.
Her mind wasn't lost, it was taken. Read her autobiography (or, alternatively listen to the CMBC episode about it) before you go and be weird in the comments of a substack about exactly what you're doing
Britney Spears is the poster child of narcissistic scapegoating and abuse. Children who have no escape from narcissistic parents live in a world of hell that is mostly incomprehensible to those who have never experienced it.
Maybe. And maybe it can be done differently. Maybe it can just be about the actual music. And the musical journey is the actual narrative. How about a dose of reality for a change? I’m writing the script… it’s going into production.
Period. She sang of the human condition and the need to feel loved. She was filled with art; explosive. I love that energy. It draws me in, and I’m not talking sexually, but emotionally, spiritually and intellectually.
Music is for connecting us, not for dividing us into groups of tropes for gropes.
I thought about how well you schooled me all through the night. I value the way people like you offer others true moments of emotional growth in here
Genres are curious boxes for human emotions. Individual artists can apply genre tones like a painter chooses color. Bebop is a bright yellow saxophone that lifts the soggy mood. The blues is indigo, of course, and allows the sadness its comforting soul tonic. Rock invites one to experience high energy spirit in ecstatic dance- magenta or red hot peppers, hip hop keeps the beat and gets us moving - warm heart beat: orange? funk brings the joy…in purple royalty… reggae allows the spirit …a meaning of nature and decidedly green …
Those genres work with our human emotive rainbow
When the musician’s paintbrush doesn’t tap into the emotional paintbox to honor our internal sounds, a paler product is delivered.
When the industry developed around the power of music, it suddenly became about making money off of an inspiring art form, and the products pale in comparison
I’d prefer to share my two cents with songs that free my soul than to win any royalties that corrupt the goal. Music is for expanding consciousness and connecting spirit to spirit, bonding soul to soul.
New to this space and social media in general. I regret writing cranky comments.
Living and learning. Thanks for your honesty. I’m still growing up. Or maybe I’m growing in. Into myself. Virtual Socializing isn’t my strength. Trying to share my voice in this loud world feels harder than I like … and when the topic turns to music, I realize I have too many rigid opinions- developed from repressing my own musical dreams for way too long.
Good piece. Sometimes I think that the second wave feminist generation, those of us born between the 60s and the '90s, tried to fight against this dichotomy. But the younger generation, not sure of millennials but definitely Generation Z, seem to be deciding just to step outside of it. Conservatives wonder why so many young people are gender expansive, but it's not at all confusing when you look at the gender roles that they are presented with. They have choices that they get to make simply because so many of them are making them all at once. They are making up their own new spectrum and it's scaring the bejeezus out of people who have based their own self-worth keeping the status quo.
And they are being indoctrinated at a young age through the internet. Starting out on relatively safe videos, games, etc. but can be quickly steered towards manosphere content through algorithms. They are victims of the patriarchy and continue to be taught that girls and women are the source of their problems. The people hawking this shit are grifter losers who failed at their first or even second career choice. Always gotta be a scapegoat instead of taking accountability. It's really gross and dangerous.
We’re all both. We all have estrogen and testosterone. Men and women. It varies in the same way no two trees are exact replicas. We are all unified in our common uniqueness.
Humans are energetic bags of vibrations, low and high. The younger gender expansive generation understands that identity should not be glued to one’s gender, and yet they are confused by the models that have ruled in the public eye for generations, so they feel they must reassign to feel aligned.
If we all realized our natural plurality, we could end the pronouns debate by all agreeing to see our multiple selves as Me, Myself & I, or Ego, conscious mind, Subconscious mind… or Sun, Moon & Rising Star selves:
i LOVE this 👏 so true and what i am always thinking about how gen z just has a different way of perceiving gender - they realize what they’re told about gender / what’s acceptable doesn’t all add up and are healthily exploring what that all means to them & breaking through the “norms”. we need that from them and years down the line hopefully gender will be more open and fluid, because that’s natural really!
Glad to know I resonate. I think this connecting on philosophical levels about developing human consciousness is the way to move forward. There is light ahead… it’s an intelligent source after all— as I always believed.
How do humans get so distracted from honoring the sun as the
real life giving force? What good is water when there is no light?
Watch for the signs. Once you start noticing how the spirit sends messages— you start seeing them everywhere. If you just need someone to confirm— take that note from me. It feels undeniable that magic rules the world.
I believe each generation actually exhibits proof that humans are evolving. Each generation breaks in with a new level of consciousness. Plenty of us gen X tomboys out here waving the pride flag for people identifying as themselves! Every individual is a plurality… sometimes arguing with themselves!
And isn’t it pathetic that the new administration has to beg people to have more babies?? They need to come up with tax break incentives so people won’t feel that it’s downright impossible to afford to be a parent these days…
How about just promoting LOVE over fear and hate for a change up… see what happens to the birth rate. 🤣
oh my gosh, we are on the saaame wavelength my friend 😄 about it being proof of human evolution - & awakening - i’ve always believed the exact thing, good to know like-minded individuals exist! 🫶
and great point concerning the issues around birth rates too haha i totally agree
I love cultural criticism and believe it's important to reflect on the messaging we receive from artists and the media, but I did want to point out a few inaccuracies, particularly with the Gracie Abrams lyrics that were shared:
1. “I need nothing”
This lyric is incorrectly attributed to Abrams' recent song "Risk". It's actually another line from "Close to You," a song that 25-year-old Gracie wrote at 17. Also, to give some context to that lyric, Abrams isn't saying that she “need[s] nothing” from a man, she's saying that even though she’s in a room filled with people lusting after each other, she good and "need[s] nothing." This all changes when the subject of the song meets her gaze and she begins to lust after him and wanting to be close to him. The song feels unserious to me: It's the way that we can see a hot guy across the room and be hyperbolic with our friends about all the things you'd do to get with him, or building a crush up in your head before you actually meet and get to know the real person.
2. “I miss fighting in your old apartment, breaking dishes when you’re disappointed. I still love you, I’m sorry.”
The correct lyric is: “I miss fightin' in your old apartment, breakin' dishes when you're disappointed, I still love you, I promise.” Also, it’s not from her recent song “I Love You, I’m Sorry” it’s from a song she released 5 years ago called “I Miss You, I’m Sorry”
3. “I would bend back to you if you left the door open”
To give it some context, the song reads: "It’s all 'cause of you that my standards are broken in my mind/ I would bend back to you if you left the door open/ I know that I should hate you." "I Should Hate You" is a self-aware song about knowing how you SHOULD feel vs. how you actually feel deep down, even if you wouldn’t actually admit it to anyone out loud.
4. “Sorry that I can’t believe that anybody ever really starts to fall in love with me.”
This lyric is incorrectly attributed to Abrams’ song, “I Miss You, I’m Sorry” but it’s actually not an Abrams lyric at all. It’s a HALSEY lyric from her song, “Sorry.”
5. “I would do whatever you wanted.”
This lyric is from Abrams song “Feels Like.” It’s actually not about a guy at all. It’s about a perfect day Abrams had with her best friend. She's saying that she'd do whatever Audrey wanted. Whether it's staying at home in their apartment or going out on an adventure that day.
A large number of Abrams songs were written about her first relationship. It was an on-and-off relationship that spanned from high school to her early 20s. These songs are about a young person experiencing love for the first time and the mistakes she makes along the way. She explores her conflicted feelings about him and their relationship and all the confusing contradictions she feels.
I mention her age or the age of some of her songs above, because now at 25, it’s clear that Abrams has evolved from some of her older lyrics and perspectives. Sabrina Carpenter and Gracie Abrams are a little under a year apart, yet, it seems this piece is (mostly) comparing 25/26-year-old Sabrina with 17-21 year old Gracie (re: most of the lyric examples).
While some artists tend to paint the guy as the asshole/villain and themselves as the victim or someone too unbothered to stress about some dude when there are more fish in the sea, Abrams songwriting feels refreshing. She’s unafraid to call herself out and admit when she’s wronged a partner. She’s also not afraid to call out her love interests on their BS either.
Carpenter’s music is humorous, biting, glossy, and aspirational. I'm a fan. But I also love what Gracie does. She wades into the grey, working through her feelings in her songs. She's more interested in honesty than painting a flattering picture of herself. She tells the truth, even if it's messy, even if she knows that she shouldn't actually be feeling the way she does. The messiness and cringe and brutal honesty feels relatable and I'd argue it's needed.
Oh and for the record: that 5+ year relationship she wrote so many songs about? SHE left HIM.
Agreed so much with this response. Post was riddled with many inaccuracies and misquotations. And holding my hands up as someone who enjoys both Sabrina Carpenter and Gracie Abrams, I find Abrams to be a far better lyricist and find her work reminiscent of Phoebe Bridgers. I’m 24 right now and exactly the type of person the OP wants her daughter to be from the sounds of the article - always marched to the beat of my own drum, never really cared for boys growing up and always prioritised my passions and hobbies (writing, film, crafting etc.) and friendships above all else in the world.
It's really reductive and also harmful to reduce Gracie’s work to a ‘I am not okay unless a man loves me’. Although I love her earlier work and the more indie songs since I found her through TIWIFL, her newest work is an evolution from the songs she wrote at 17.
I appreciate cultural criticism, but not when it’s riddled with inaccuracies and as you say, it’s wholly unfair to compare songs written when someone was 16/17 to something someone else wrote at 25 especially given that Sabrina’s music career and work in entertainment spans far longer due to her work on Disney and Short n Sweet is her sixth studio album.
I also think the author's conflation of song lyrics with Truth is ... lacking. And I think the way Carpenter dresses versus the way Abrams dresses actually matters! To describe feeling inadequate in music is: what music is for. The visuals you develop as a celebrity do matter and are something completely different from lyrics! I would give points to Abrams in that sphere—willing to wear a t-shirt, lower-maintenance beauty vibes, less overtly "I'm hot" outfits--I think all of that actually does matter in this sort of discussion. If you look at Abrams as a whole, I think you could see her as a serious songwriter interested in depth in her lyrics, like you said, and a seriousness of purpose is something cool for a teen to look up to!
Thank you for this - I was starting to gaslight myself into thinking I misremembered her songs. I think it’s an interesting point that the author of this post is trying to make but this is just sloppy!
"But if I did have to choose, honestly I’d prefer the whore."
The thing is, you don't have to choose between these two extremes. No one has. It's a false dichotomy presented in our celebrity culture as the only choice available.
Madonnas and whores are bad role models for kids. Just love your children and teach them to think for themselves. They'll be fine.
We control our choices, we do not control how people perceive our choices. Women who claim their sovereignty are often labeled whores while women who become needless and fold into the desires of others are often labeled as Madonnas. This isn’t a victim mentality it is how humans have operated. Thinking for ourselves is what is labeled whorish. That is perhaps why Celeste points to it as a better choice.
Yes. Play some appropriate music for childhood. It exists. Expose them to other culture’s music- let them actually play an instrument to unlock their own internal music. Everyone has music in them, that’s why we resonate.
I’m sorry, but what? “If you’re going to be screwed by the patriarchy either way, may as well go with the option where orgasms are more likely.”
I respect what you are attempting to do here but this is still the feminine justifying victim mentality and blaming it on the patriarchy. The truth is NEITHER work, they both oppress and we will continue to live inside of polarity as women, accepting both scarlet letters — the whore, and the virgin, until we reconcile this within ourselves and choose differently. Especially with where spend our money and give our attention. The real flex is clearing generational patterns not accepting either side of the same shit sandwich.
Looking forward to the day when it all becomes about mental prowess.
The thing is, women have to gather now in our collective Goddess strength. Mothers especially are the unrecognized heroes of the planet; we are so overworked and undervalued that we forget our power because the patriarchy has had a ruthless grip on controlling our lives for—- ever… very few societies have been run by women.
But, don’t you know, men have had their turn for too long. They clearly don’t understand the task: to build solidarity among people and to become inspired stewards of the planet.
Goddess time is rising. Let’s push past the complaining phase and start spending a little time experiencing
what it feels like to sit in power.
Then patriarchy exists because a man generally fears a woman’s power. We are the creative force of the world and they know it.
In one of the scenes in the newest season of The Handmaid’s Tale June and Moira compare the abuse as Handmaid and Jezabel respectively. In the end both was rape either in God’s name or man’s proclivities.
As a man and a father of women; I consistently find myself chafing at “whore” activities only to acknowledge how patriarchy has created such lenses. I am privileged that I also have a boy and I may ask “how would I feel is he was doing this activity?” From short shorts, cleavage, or midriff to drinking, parties, and sex. Most activities only elicit “wrongness” when done by women.
And June, Moira, Sarina Joy, all of them at some point are called “whores”. The worst thing a woman can be is a being who finds pleasure in her life and her body by belonging to herself. The same qualities that illicit a Pat on the back and “at a boy” for the men in the series. I’m glad you noted this.
I am not a mother nor have I listened to the music from either of these performers. I am an old, white woman. I’ve been an outsider all my life and when I realized in college that I was bisexual, while it was difficult back in the 70s, I am glad I never felt I had to follow the cisgender, hetero norms of the 70s. Women of color frequently seem so much more empowered with their sexuality. I remember the uproar when “WAP” came out. Again, I have never listened to the song but I remember being impressed by Megan Thee Stallion and Cardi B for that collaboration. Even tho’ I don’t listen to either of them (I’m a classic rock fan), I know who they are and I like how they are unapologetically themselves.
I truly appreciate the boldness of this perspective. But why do we keep limiting ourselves?! And our daughters? Why are we still stuck in the Madonna–Whore dichotomy? There are other choices. So many.
These two roles have been so deeply ingrained in Western culture for thousands of years that they’ve eclipsed the richness and complexity of the feminine psyche.
But the true feminist movement today isn’t about choosing between these two and about picking the one that offers more power within the same broken frame.
It’s about remembering, discovering, and embodying the other powerful, sovereign expressions of womanhood: the Great Mother, the Wild Woman, the Priestess, the Creatrix, the Oracle, the Weaver of Worlds...
Can we stop reacting to patriarchy—and instead start seeing ourselves in our wholeness?
It’s not about fighting for space inside the system anymore. It’s about exiting the system altogether and creating a new one. Why don't we build a world where women and men stand not in opposition, but in the fullness of who they are? In awe, in support, in togetherness.
“Can we stop reacting to patriarchy—and instead start seeing ourselves in our wholeness?”
Yes we will. We’ve got this… underground movement rising like representatives of Mother Earth herself ready to shake the fools of war off of her mantle with a mighty shrug.
It hasn't been ingrained in Germanic culture until forced christianisation. If you read Tacitus' Germania he talks about how the men of the Germanic tribes highly valued their women, even seeking their counsel for important issues. I believe even the Celtic tribes were the same. This madonna/whore dichotomy is not really European.
I have to ask - what study did you find saying that women who marry before 25 and become stay at home moms have a 5% chance of being with their husbands by retirement? That is an astounding statistic, especially when I consider the women in my extended family and the community I grew up in. Easily the majority of them fall into that category.
Thanks for asking Maren- I went back and did some more research, and you're right, that number doesn't reflect the census data. I've edited my original post to reflect more accurate numbers. Thanks for asking!
Thanks Celeste! I checked your updated numbers and they are also unsettling! 😬 I wish I had been more aware of all of this before getting married. Like so many women, I was sold too hard on something that is not realistic for most.
Its very realistic, and simple, women just have been propagandized into no longer having duties and obligations and not understanding what it takes to be a wife.
I am aware. I looked at the chart and saw that many squares extended to the right, ie to 44 years of marriage, even at younger ages. But in fact without the actual rates on the chart it neither confirms nor invalidates the 95% figure.
Note that those rates are per 1000. Summing* these numbers (which represent the expected annual attrition starting from a cohort of 1000) across all marriage durations below 40 years we get expected number still-married at 40 years of marriage.
For ages 15-19 that yields 927, so a predicted 92.7% rate - not too far off 95%.
For ages 20-24 it yields 687, ie 68.7%. Given many more people get married in the latter age bracket, we should expect the average to be rather closer to 68.7% than 92.7%.
(*They are annual rates, so for the 5-year blocks we multiply by 5 before summing)
I love this article, very thought-provoking. I do think the female singer who sings about heartbreak and toxic relationships is just doing art to express herself and her old painful moments. I do the same in my poetry, in my art, in my lyrics. I don't think she's necessarily trying to groom young girls into accepting less than they deserve. I think she's just expressing raw feelings that many girls and women have but don't dare to express. From what I've seen she is all for empowering girls to live shitty relationships too. Her songs are meant to highlight how messed up one's thinking can get in a toxic relationship, or an unstable relationship. I don't think she has a harmful message that comes with it, though I can see how without an extra discussion this type of music can be bad for people. I listen to quite a lot of angsty sad songs in a cathartic way and I don't feel like those artists are romanticizing or validating whatever raw thoughts they're expressing.
Otherwise I really deeply love what you wrote! I wish more people talked about these different misogynistic stereotypes and how much women and girls have suffered, being forced into a sexist box. I look forward to more of your pieces!!
Or we could teach our daughters to seek out a companion that wants to share the lead role, together. You have more than these two pathetic examples offered in this post.
I would choose neither of these examples for my daughters. They’re both terrible.
Good gravy this was a horrible article. “I don’t want my daughter to be a doormat, so therefore, whore is the route I would choose for her.” Ugh. Think outside the box. There are more than two options. And men are not always the villains.
Huzzah! And bring on the new trope: independent women, who marry for their own needs and desires. Maybe she wants kids (don't have to marry for that); maybe she wants sex (don't have to marry for that, and if it's not hetero-sex, maybe unable to marry for that); maybe she wants companionship. Maybe she wants to be a homemaker for her own reasons. But let's make it a dream for each person that is able to become self-aware, to realize they are worthy and capable of pursuing their own dreams, outside of a relationship. And inside a relationship if that is their own personal, well-considered choice.
In the past, I've noticed making myself small, reducing my own needs, taking up less space ... and luckily wasn't too far into the relationship to realize it. I wish everyone gets to be so lucky.
Yes to that view. It’s ok to focus on being a good human too— we are all on parallel journeys. We all start as infants and we travel the line of our life until it ends. We never know what others really think, so what they think doesn’t need to restrict or impact us, or design and label us.
Women need to develop independence, yes but also guide society towards interdependence because they rugged American individualism hasn’t done much good, really. We need to become a collective.
I’m probably not the stereotypical reader here, but I think the big thing is Carpenter isn’t passive, whereas Abrams to some extent is.
Sabrina sings about her boundaries very clearly (Opposite, Feather, Good Graces, Busy Woman) and even in Juno they’re pretty apparent. The nice thing (marketing?) is that they’re boundaries and goals everyone can agree are good.
There’s no sense of powerlessness or inherent insufficiency/insecurity, which is something sad one can find, especially in Olivia Rodrigo.
And as an aspiring fantasy author *don’t* get me started on the “heroes” and “heroines” of BookTok.
Oh Celeste! I’m just engrossed in the article, grieving its inevitable end…and then you throw down a mic drop that made me go from angry indignation to a true laugh out loud.
I’ve lived the Mormon “culture”. It’s patriarchy is the most subtle of obusive forms. Marie Osmund has been the teen idol of many. How she has stayed in Mormonism says plenty. I had to leave. I’m still scarred but recovering. I’ve watched her and felt for her many times. The pattern of our world seems to be submissive women. We all pay a price. I long for better.
I loved this article on the title alone- and the rest didn’t disappoint! Britney Spears is an excellent example of a young woman walking that needle’s edge being everything the patriarchy wants (virginal and hot and talented) and still got completely screwed over. There’s no winning, so fuck it. Don’t erase yourself. Seize your sexuality and independence with a cheeky wink a la Sabrina Carpenter. And if you can add in some Pink or Rhianna level of zero fucks go piss into the wind attitude, go for it.
I think that's a super problematic conclusion. Both tropes are massively reductive. I don't have a whole lot of hope for pop music but hopefully, parents can fill those gaps with nuanced conversations about what healthy relationships (with romantic partners, close friends, and ourselves) look like. Our ability to have them is imperative.
Let’s be done with pointless pop, please.
Mindless, fun, catchy music will always have an audience. Regardless of whether or not it's deep, there is always a message of some kind which can either be something damaging or positive. Hopefully, we'll at least move towards the latter 🤷🏼♀️
Yes. I get it. Because I’m a musician. I know that people crave the kind of music that lifts the spirit- that all going to be built upon major chords and bumping rhythms… but levity in lyric doesn’t have to kiss ass to systems that keep us in chains. I’m developing my sound studio with an eye towards subtle social work.
I love the idea of subtle social work. I can proudly say that I've never given a penny to keep pop music alive (and I've seen a fair amount of live music) and that I was listening to Joni Mitchell in the 90s when my peers were listening to boy bands and Spice Girls 😅
I think it sounds like we have had more interesting musical journeys than those who just follow the current trend. I feel like music saved my life on multiple occasions. Music has been my best friend all of my life, and the most fun one… because it has always deepened my experience and my understanding of humanity. I love Joni Mitchell— my favorite Joni performance is when she sang Coyote with The Band for their Last Waltz concert. Great poet and musician.
I spent the 90s dedicated to Janis. I was absolutely in love with her— still am. “Don’t turn your back on love… get it while you can…’ allowed me to accept love and have a beautiful life with three children. My youngest completes high school on Saturday— we homeschooled the last two years. Writing, cooking, and learning how to make music with digital instrumentation. I prefer the real instruments, but have mastered none. But — at least now I am returning to my inner child’s original plan. I’m here to make music. I’ve always known that… just gathering courage and prepping like someone anticipating the end of the world could be postponed by a rockin’ dance party.
Yes. I didn’t have a healthy relationship with myself until very recently, and then only under the duress of burnout.
Gotta start somewhere :)
Pink and Rhianna are interesting considerations. Not sure they fit into either.
I’m interested to hear more about this point you’ve made.
I’m not sure if what I’m adding here even contributes anything to your point, I just wondered and wanted to understand because I think these women have to choose patriarchy along with their compliance in their celebrity career
but Pink liked Johnny Depp in her youth (but I think she was embarrassed when the bros exposed this via a surprise talk show meeting) and apparently Rihanna is quite the misogynist (even lyrics sometimes suggest this?)
I honestly don’t know why this is easier for me to do than what I need to be doing 😅😓
Well, the challenge with celebrities is you never completely know them and may support someone abhorrent (speaking as a former Depp and Gaiman fan…) out of ignorance. We also change as we mature and learn. So with those caveats out of the way:
In addition to her music, two things Rihanna did stuck with me. When asked about what she wore on her first red carpet, her answer was “I dunno, young and stupid?” That’s a non-standard answer and shows a blunt acknowledgement of how much she has learned (combined with a challenge to show compassion to her younger self, a personal struggle that resonates). The second thing that hit me was her superbowl performance. She didn’t even try to lip sync. Her vibe was very much so “can’t be arsed to play this game by your rules, check it out I’m pregnant”. Loved it.
Pink was my favourite in junior high. I wasn’t a Britney or Christina fan (those loves came later). She has from the beginning managed to somehow succeed despite refusing to be young-cute-sexy at a time when I would have thought that impossible. And she changed her lyrics to a song that referenced Britney when she found out what Britney went through, which was total class.
Now Sabrina is doing the young-cute-sexy thing, and seems to be doing it for herself (and in my opinion trolling the patriarchy while doing so - why else would she dress in an outfit a cartoon bunny wore?)
So to me all 3 have figured out how to navigate their fame on their own terms, and in very different ways from different decades. I admire them for those traits and if I had a daughter would hope that she might learn to navigate her world in her way, figuring out which rules to break, and come through intact. Because following all the rules would break her. That is guaranteed.
You should educated yourself better and watch the Depp trial in its entirety. If you choose to ignore evidence, because it goes against your belief system that men can't be victims as well and even being ridiculed for it (Three direct quotes from Amber Heard: "Tell the World, Johnny, tell then I Johnny Depp, a man, I'm a victim too of domestic violence.. and see how many people believe or side with you", "I f**kinf was hitting you", "I can't promise I won't get physical again. God I f**king get so mad sometimes I loose it".
The male victim, Johnny Depp, has STILL people not believing him because of his gender and because he wasn't a perfect victim due to his substance abuse.
So either f**king inform yourself or don't talk about something you have absolutely zero idea of!
Oh here we go. Yes, they hit *each other*. Funny how Heard seems to be the only one taking the heat over that, despite how openly Depp spent decades battling substance abuse where he acknowledged behaving violently on whatever his drug of choice was at any given time.
Don't start with this. The pair of them are toxic, and toxic to each other.
NO THEY DID NOT HIT EACH OTHER ffs. Educate yourself!
She was the physical one and gaslighted him into admitting to "hurting her on the head" when he tried to flee from her and hide in the bathroom! It is one tape!
Yes, I absolutely thought Britney Spears really captured what the author was expressing.
Beautifully written and I agree with all of it!
In a lot of ways I think it's important for women to reject BOTH sides of the "whore" and "good girl" false dichotomy. Just be a woman. And no we don't need to do it with a wink and a nod to playing the "whore" or with any indulgence toward playing the "good girl". Burn both straightjackets, please. Don't think we can play dress up with them and not have it cost much more in terms of progress than the temporary fun'n'games or personal social benefits of playing around with the theme of either "whore" or "good girl" get us. The men jacking off and jacking us up while taking away our healthcare don't care if you wink and nod at it. They just look at the performance (either one, whore or good girl) and grab the nearest girl or young woman they want compliant (either to the whore or good girl role) and say there, look at that. That's what you are. And while most don't believe it, and maybe most see the wink and nod and "get it", some do just take it in. There's always some who do, too many, and I was one, and most of the girls I knew growing up were too.
We were "trailer trash" and didn't really have a lot of esteem. I think women who grew up as girls with a more secure home life can get a way with winking and nodding and playing with these stereotypical roles it in a way those who grow up lacking can't. Whether lacking means poorer in funds or poorer in way you're treated when young, or both.
Basically -- It's SO much easier to play "whore" or "good girl" and then wink and stand up and say noooo actually you have agency and esteem and power. To put away the costume and get off the stage unscathed. Meanwhile... When you really might actually have to run away from your fucked up home at 15 and get listed on backpage... when you might actually grow up dreaming of vowing to submit to your husband just as he submits to god and get up in a white dress and getting married as soon as you can and obeying him, because that's for real what you're taught... when it's not just a costume and a game... you do kinda start to resent later, when you wake up and get yourself out, the pop culture fluff around it all. The false glamor and $$$ careers built on selling it. Not just for the ladies of pop but the people, including many a big salary man, in the industries behind it.
I don't like what either woman the article is about feels the need to produce culturally. I don't view them as villains though, just as people, as women. Women both probably richer than I'll ever be, and I do view both basically as sellouts, but ya know. That's not villainy any more than me when I clock my 9-5 at a place I don't think benefits society one iota and mostly just exists to churn out its crap. It's not good either, of course, and at every opportunity I will strive to contribute to a world without any of this. With something better. But I get it. People want to get a secure life. And maybe both of these artists genuinely connect to what they're selling. Sad if so to me but I can also understand that.
If there were any regressive stereotype I do think women could stand to embrace more it's hag. Where's the 20 something hag pop? Please link.
Spears? The drugged-up singer who lost her mind on Instagram, that’s your role model?
And never forget she was a child star taken advantage of my adults, including her own father.
Her mind wasn't lost, it was taken. Read her autobiography (or, alternatively listen to the CMBC episode about it) before you go and be weird in the comments of a substack about exactly what you're doing
Read the comment again
Britney Spears is the poster child of narcissistic scapegoating and abuse. Children who have no escape from narcissistic parents live in a world of hell that is mostly incomprehensible to those who have never experienced it.
and @noughts comment is a perfect example of the madonna whore complex….
This is a perfect example of misogyny.
Maybe. And maybe it can be done differently. Maybe it can just be about the actual music. And the musical journey is the actual narrative. How about a dose of reality for a change? I’m writing the script… it’s going into production.
All Bonnie Raitt always seemed like a rocker first to me. Not an eye candy star.
Janis wins for me. “Never compromise your art”
Period. She sang of the human condition and the need to feel loved. She was filled with art; explosive. I love that energy. It draws me in, and I’m not talking sexually, but emotionally, spiritually and intellectually.
Music is for connecting us, not for dividing us into groups of tropes for gropes.
I think you might have a few good points if you didn't aim so much at denigrating genres other than your own.
I thought about how well you schooled me all through the night. I value the way people like you offer others true moments of emotional growth in here
Genres are curious boxes for human emotions. Individual artists can apply genre tones like a painter chooses color. Bebop is a bright yellow saxophone that lifts the soggy mood. The blues is indigo, of course, and allows the sadness its comforting soul tonic. Rock invites one to experience high energy spirit in ecstatic dance- magenta or red hot peppers, hip hop keeps the beat and gets us moving - warm heart beat: orange? funk brings the joy…in purple royalty… reggae allows the spirit …a meaning of nature and decidedly green …
Those genres work with our human emotive rainbow
When the musician’s paintbrush doesn’t tap into the emotional paintbox to honor our internal sounds, a paler product is delivered.
When the industry developed around the power of music, it suddenly became about making money off of an inspiring art form, and the products pale in comparison
I’d prefer to share my two cents with songs that free my soul than to win any royalties that corrupt the goal. Music is for expanding consciousness and connecting spirit to spirit, bonding soul to soul.
Peace,
Yeah, you are right.
I was too heated to make responses.
New to this space and social media in general. I regret writing cranky comments.
Living and learning. Thanks for your honesty. I’m still growing up. Or maybe I’m growing in. Into myself. Virtual Socializing isn’t my strength. Trying to share my voice in this loud world feels harder than I like … and when the topic turns to music, I realize I have too many rigid opinions- developed from repressing my own musical dreams for way too long.
Good piece. Sometimes I think that the second wave feminist generation, those of us born between the 60s and the '90s, tried to fight against this dichotomy. But the younger generation, not sure of millennials but definitely Generation Z, seem to be deciding just to step outside of it. Conservatives wonder why so many young people are gender expansive, but it's not at all confusing when you look at the gender roles that they are presented with. They have choices that they get to make simply because so many of them are making them all at once. They are making up their own new spectrum and it's scaring the bejeezus out of people who have based their own self-worth keeping the status quo.
💯💯💯 Could not agree more
Yes! In the upcoming generations I see the young deciding that the gender confines serve the patriarchy and they are opting out.
I certainly hope this was true but young men seem to going right following idiots like Andrew Tate down the inner rabbit hole at an alarming pace.
And they are being indoctrinated at a young age through the internet. Starting out on relatively safe videos, games, etc. but can be quickly steered towards manosphere content through algorithms. They are victims of the patriarchy and continue to be taught that girls and women are the source of their problems. The people hawking this shit are grifter losers who failed at their first or even second career choice. Always gotta be a scapegoat instead of taking accountability. It's really gross and dangerous.
I haven't looked at it this way before. Thank you.
We’re all both. We all have estrogen and testosterone. Men and women. It varies in the same way no two trees are exact replicas. We are all unified in our common uniqueness.
Humans are energetic bags of vibrations, low and high. The younger gender expansive generation understands that identity should not be glued to one’s gender, and yet they are confused by the models that have ruled in the public eye for generations, so they feel they must reassign to feel aligned.
If we all realized our natural plurality, we could end the pronouns debate by all agreeing to see our multiple selves as Me, Myself & I, or Ego, conscious mind, Subconscious mind… or Sun, Moon & Rising Star selves:
pronouns: we/us
i LOVE this 👏 so true and what i am always thinking about how gen z just has a different way of perceiving gender - they realize what they’re told about gender / what’s acceptable doesn’t all add up and are healthily exploring what that all means to them & breaking through the “norms”. we need that from them and years down the line hopefully gender will be more open and fluid, because that’s natural really!
Glad to know I resonate. I think this connecting on philosophical levels about developing human consciousness is the way to move forward. There is light ahead… it’s an intelligent source after all— as I always believed.
How do humans get so distracted from honoring the sun as the
real life giving force? What good is water when there is no light?
agreed. i just try to remind myself we’re on a divine trajectory ✨
Watch for the signs. Once you start noticing how the spirit sends messages— you start seeing them everywhere. If you just need someone to confirm— take that note from me. It feels undeniable that magic rules the world.
“magic rules the world” 🙌🌟💜
Yes, to that!
I believe each generation actually exhibits proof that humans are evolving. Each generation breaks in with a new level of consciousness. Plenty of us gen X tomboys out here waving the pride flag for people identifying as themselves! Every individual is a plurality… sometimes arguing with themselves!
And isn’t it pathetic that the new administration has to beg people to have more babies?? They need to come up with tax break incentives so people won’t feel that it’s downright impossible to afford to be a parent these days…
How about just promoting LOVE over fear and hate for a change up… see what happens to the birth rate. 🤣
oh my gosh, we are on the saaame wavelength my friend 😄 about it being proof of human evolution - & awakening - i’ve always believed the exact thing, good to know like-minded individuals exist! 🫶
and great point concerning the issues around birth rates too haha i totally agree
Such a great point!
Great point. Trying to reply to Suki W... Very confusing amount of comments here 😂
👏👏👏 yes!
I love cultural criticism and believe it's important to reflect on the messaging we receive from artists and the media, but I did want to point out a few inaccuracies, particularly with the Gracie Abrams lyrics that were shared:
1. “I need nothing”
This lyric is incorrectly attributed to Abrams' recent song "Risk". It's actually another line from "Close to You," a song that 25-year-old Gracie wrote at 17. Also, to give some context to that lyric, Abrams isn't saying that she “need[s] nothing” from a man, she's saying that even though she’s in a room filled with people lusting after each other, she good and "need[s] nothing." This all changes when the subject of the song meets her gaze and she begins to lust after him and wanting to be close to him. The song feels unserious to me: It's the way that we can see a hot guy across the room and be hyperbolic with our friends about all the things you'd do to get with him, or building a crush up in your head before you actually meet and get to know the real person.
2. “I miss fighting in your old apartment, breaking dishes when you’re disappointed. I still love you, I’m sorry.”
The correct lyric is: “I miss fightin' in your old apartment, breakin' dishes when you're disappointed, I still love you, I promise.” Also, it’s not from her recent song “I Love You, I’m Sorry” it’s from a song she released 5 years ago called “I Miss You, I’m Sorry”
3. “I would bend back to you if you left the door open”
To give it some context, the song reads: "It’s all 'cause of you that my standards are broken in my mind/ I would bend back to you if you left the door open/ I know that I should hate you." "I Should Hate You" is a self-aware song about knowing how you SHOULD feel vs. how you actually feel deep down, even if you wouldn’t actually admit it to anyone out loud.
4. “Sorry that I can’t believe that anybody ever really starts to fall in love with me.”
This lyric is incorrectly attributed to Abrams’ song, “I Miss You, I’m Sorry” but it’s actually not an Abrams lyric at all. It’s a HALSEY lyric from her song, “Sorry.”
5. “I would do whatever you wanted.”
This lyric is from Abrams song “Feels Like.” It’s actually not about a guy at all. It’s about a perfect day Abrams had with her best friend. She's saying that she'd do whatever Audrey wanted. Whether it's staying at home in their apartment or going out on an adventure that day.
A large number of Abrams songs were written about her first relationship. It was an on-and-off relationship that spanned from high school to her early 20s. These songs are about a young person experiencing love for the first time and the mistakes she makes along the way. She explores her conflicted feelings about him and their relationship and all the confusing contradictions she feels.
I mention her age or the age of some of her songs above, because now at 25, it’s clear that Abrams has evolved from some of her older lyrics and perspectives. Sabrina Carpenter and Gracie Abrams are a little under a year apart, yet, it seems this piece is (mostly) comparing 25/26-year-old Sabrina with 17-21 year old Gracie (re: most of the lyric examples).
While some artists tend to paint the guy as the asshole/villain and themselves as the victim or someone too unbothered to stress about some dude when there are more fish in the sea, Abrams songwriting feels refreshing. She’s unafraid to call herself out and admit when she’s wronged a partner. She’s also not afraid to call out her love interests on their BS either.
Carpenter’s music is humorous, biting, glossy, and aspirational. I'm a fan. But I also love what Gracie does. She wades into the grey, working through her feelings in her songs. She's more interested in honesty than painting a flattering picture of herself. She tells the truth, even if it's messy, even if she knows that she shouldn't actually be feeling the way she does. The messiness and cringe and brutal honesty feels relatable and I'd argue it's needed.
Oh and for the record: that 5+ year relationship she wrote so many songs about? SHE left HIM.
To show a bit of Abrams' evolution, this is a lyric from her newest album:
"No chance I waste my twenties on random men, not one of them is cooler than all my friends"
Agreed so much with this response. Post was riddled with many inaccuracies and misquotations. And holding my hands up as someone who enjoys both Sabrina Carpenter and Gracie Abrams, I find Abrams to be a far better lyricist and find her work reminiscent of Phoebe Bridgers. I’m 24 right now and exactly the type of person the OP wants her daughter to be from the sounds of the article - always marched to the beat of my own drum, never really cared for boys growing up and always prioritised my passions and hobbies (writing, film, crafting etc.) and friendships above all else in the world.
It's really reductive and also harmful to reduce Gracie’s work to a ‘I am not okay unless a man loves me’. Although I love her earlier work and the more indie songs since I found her through TIWIFL, her newest work is an evolution from the songs she wrote at 17.
I appreciate cultural criticism, but not when it’s riddled with inaccuracies and as you say, it’s wholly unfair to compare songs written when someone was 16/17 to something someone else wrote at 25 especially given that Sabrina’s music career and work in entertainment spans far longer due to her work on Disney and Short n Sweet is her sixth studio album.
Couldn’t agree more with all of this!
Thank you for this comment. All I kept thinking while reading this part was that obviously they sound awful because they're taken so out of context.
THANK YOU for clarifying and defining these lyrics! as someone who has listened to both artists a good amount i 100% agree.
so glad you’re pointing this all out
Absolutely agree. It’s relatable particularly in hindsight.
Thank you so much for this!!!!!!! I spotted these inaccuracies too and was immediately drawn away from the rest of the piece
I also think the author's conflation of song lyrics with Truth is ... lacking. And I think the way Carpenter dresses versus the way Abrams dresses actually matters! To describe feeling inadequate in music is: what music is for. The visuals you develop as a celebrity do matter and are something completely different from lyrics! I would give points to Abrams in that sphere—willing to wear a t-shirt, lower-maintenance beauty vibes, less overtly "I'm hot" outfits--I think all of that actually does matter in this sort of discussion. If you look at Abrams as a whole, I think you could see her as a serious songwriter interested in depth in her lyrics, like you said, and a seriousness of purpose is something cool for a teen to look up to!
Thank you for this - I was starting to gaslight myself into thinking I misremembered her songs. I think it’s an interesting point that the author of this post is trying to make but this is just sloppy!
Agreed!
Came here looking for this. Amen.
thank you for breaking this down 🙌
Thank you for putting things into perspective!
Thank you for providing context. I also noticed the flaws in her citations.
"But if I did have to choose, honestly I’d prefer the whore."
The thing is, you don't have to choose between these two extremes. No one has. It's a false dichotomy presented in our celebrity culture as the only choice available.
Madonnas and whores are bad role models for kids. Just love your children and teach them to think for themselves. They'll be fine.
We control our choices, we do not control how people perceive our choices. Women who claim their sovereignty are often labeled whores while women who become needless and fold into the desires of others are often labeled as Madonnas. This isn’t a victim mentality it is how humans have operated. Thinking for ourselves is what is labeled whorish. That is perhaps why Celeste points to it as a better choice.
Yes. Play some appropriate music for childhood. It exists. Expose them to other culture’s music- let them actually play an instrument to unlock their own internal music. Everyone has music in them, that’s why we resonate.
yes that’s so sad for someone to believe these are the only two options 🫣
I’m sorry, but what? “If you’re going to be screwed by the patriarchy either way, may as well go with the option where orgasms are more likely.”
I respect what you are attempting to do here but this is still the feminine justifying victim mentality and blaming it on the patriarchy. The truth is NEITHER work, they both oppress and we will continue to live inside of polarity as women, accepting both scarlet letters — the whore, and the virgin, until we reconcile this within ourselves and choose differently. Especially with where spend our money and give our attention. The real flex is clearing generational patterns not accepting either side of the same shit sandwich.
yea it’s so sad and there is SO much music out there outside of the mainstream as well that portrays healthy young women
Looking forward to the day when it all becomes about mental prowess.
The thing is, women have to gather now in our collective Goddess strength. Mothers especially are the unrecognized heroes of the planet; we are so overworked and undervalued that we forget our power because the patriarchy has had a ruthless grip on controlling our lives for—- ever… very few societies have been run by women.
But, don’t you know, men have had their turn for too long. They clearly don’t understand the task: to build solidarity among people and to become inspired stewards of the planet.
Goddess time is rising. Let’s push past the complaining phase and start spending a little time experiencing
what it feels like to sit in power.
Then patriarchy exists because a man generally fears a woman’s power. We are the creative force of the world and they know it.
In one of the scenes in the newest season of The Handmaid’s Tale June and Moira compare the abuse as Handmaid and Jezabel respectively. In the end both was rape either in God’s name or man’s proclivities.
As a man and a father of women; I consistently find myself chafing at “whore” activities only to acknowledge how patriarchy has created such lenses. I am privileged that I also have a boy and I may ask “how would I feel is he was doing this activity?” From short shorts, cleavage, or midriff to drinking, parties, and sex. Most activities only elicit “wrongness” when done by women.
And June, Moira, Sarina Joy, all of them at some point are called “whores”. The worst thing a woman can be is a being who finds pleasure in her life and her body by belonging to herself. The same qualities that illicit a Pat on the back and “at a boy” for the men in the series. I’m glad you noted this.
If your son is wearing short shorts and showing cleavage, that is definitely wrong.
What?
I am not a mother nor have I listened to the music from either of these performers. I am an old, white woman. I’ve been an outsider all my life and when I realized in college that I was bisexual, while it was difficult back in the 70s, I am glad I never felt I had to follow the cisgender, hetero norms of the 70s. Women of color frequently seem so much more empowered with their sexuality. I remember the uproar when “WAP” came out. Again, I have never listened to the song but I remember being impressed by Megan Thee Stallion and Cardi B for that collaboration. Even tho’ I don’t listen to either of them (I’m a classic rock fan), I know who they are and I like how they are unapologetically themselves.
I truly appreciate the boldness of this perspective. But why do we keep limiting ourselves?! And our daughters? Why are we still stuck in the Madonna–Whore dichotomy? There are other choices. So many.
These two roles have been so deeply ingrained in Western culture for thousands of years that they’ve eclipsed the richness and complexity of the feminine psyche.
But the true feminist movement today isn’t about choosing between these two and about picking the one that offers more power within the same broken frame.
It’s about remembering, discovering, and embodying the other powerful, sovereign expressions of womanhood: the Great Mother, the Wild Woman, the Priestess, the Creatrix, the Oracle, the Weaver of Worlds...
Can we stop reacting to patriarchy—and instead start seeing ourselves in our wholeness?
It’s not about fighting for space inside the system anymore. It’s about exiting the system altogether and creating a new one. Why don't we build a world where women and men stand not in opposition, but in the fullness of who they are? In awe, in support, in togetherness.
YES! Thank you for this:
“Can we stop reacting to patriarchy—and instead start seeing ourselves in our wholeness?”
Yes we will. We’ve got this… underground movement rising like representatives of Mother Earth herself ready to shake the fools of war off of her mantle with a mighty shrug.
Love this!!
It hasn't been ingrained in Germanic culture until forced christianisation. If you read Tacitus' Germania he talks about how the men of the Germanic tribes highly valued their women, even seeking their counsel for important issues. I believe even the Celtic tribes were the same. This madonna/whore dichotomy is not really European.
So good Celeste!
I have to ask - what study did you find saying that women who marry before 25 and become stay at home moms have a 5% chance of being with their husbands by retirement? That is an astounding statistic, especially when I consider the women in my extended family and the community I grew up in. Easily the majority of them fall into that category.
Thanks for asking Maren- I went back and did some more research, and you're right, that number doesn't reflect the census data. I've edited my original post to reflect more accurate numbers. Thanks for asking!
Thanks Celeste! I checked your updated numbers and they are also unsettling! 😬 I wish I had been more aware of all of this before getting married. Like so many women, I was sold too hard on something that is not realistic for most.
If you and your partner can view the marriage project as teamwork, you can overcome many of the challenges that rip unions apart.
Its very realistic, and simple, women just have been propagandized into no longer having duties and obligations and not understanding what it takes to be a wife.
Yeah I think that’s not true
I would also like a source for that. Even if true, the majority of divorces are initiated by women.
https://api.time.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/marriageweb3.png?w=1200&quality=75
That chart seems to confirm that the 95% statistic cannot be correct
I stand corrected. Thank you!
Look at the chart again. The blue color indicates the divorce rate. According to this chart, I believe the statistics are true.
I am aware. I looked at the chart and saw that many squares extended to the right, ie to 44 years of marriage, even at younger ages. But in fact without the actual rates on the chart it neither confirms nor invalidates the 95% figure.
So I went and found a chart from the same academic that has the actual rates not just colours. https://familyinequality.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/agemar-mardur-binned-predicted-div.jpg.
Note that those rates are per 1000. Summing* these numbers (which represent the expected annual attrition starting from a cohort of 1000) across all marriage durations below 40 years we get expected number still-married at 40 years of marriage.
For ages 15-19 that yields 927, so a predicted 92.7% rate - not too far off 95%.
For ages 20-24 it yields 687, ie 68.7%. Given many more people get married in the latter age bracket, we should expect the average to be rather closer to 68.7% than 92.7%.
(*They are annual rates, so for the 5-year blocks we multiply by 5 before summing)
All stats from this article: https://familyinequality.wordpress.com/2015/07/22/how-we-really-can-study-divorce/
That last line, OMG yes!!!
I love this article, very thought-provoking. I do think the female singer who sings about heartbreak and toxic relationships is just doing art to express herself and her old painful moments. I do the same in my poetry, in my art, in my lyrics. I don't think she's necessarily trying to groom young girls into accepting less than they deserve. I think she's just expressing raw feelings that many girls and women have but don't dare to express. From what I've seen she is all for empowering girls to live shitty relationships too. Her songs are meant to highlight how messed up one's thinking can get in a toxic relationship, or an unstable relationship. I don't think she has a harmful message that comes with it, though I can see how without an extra discussion this type of music can be bad for people. I listen to quite a lot of angsty sad songs in a cathartic way and I don't feel like those artists are romanticizing or validating whatever raw thoughts they're expressing.
Otherwise I really deeply love what you wrote! I wish more people talked about these different misogynistic stereotypes and how much women and girls have suffered, being forced into a sexist box. I look forward to more of your pieces!!
I agree! How much of this is prescriptive and how much of this is just describing how hard it is to be a woman in love with a man/men in your 20s.
Or we could teach our daughters to seek out a companion that wants to share the lead role, together. You have more than these two pathetic examples offered in this post.
I would choose neither of these examples for my daughters. They’re both terrible.
Good gravy this was a horrible article. “I don’t want my daughter to be a doormat, so therefore, whore is the route I would choose for her.” Ugh. Think outside the box. There are more than two options. And men are not always the villains.
Yes! Came here to say this.
Huzzah! And bring on the new trope: independent women, who marry for their own needs and desires. Maybe she wants kids (don't have to marry for that); maybe she wants sex (don't have to marry for that, and if it's not hetero-sex, maybe unable to marry for that); maybe she wants companionship. Maybe she wants to be a homemaker for her own reasons. But let's make it a dream for each person that is able to become self-aware, to realize they are worthy and capable of pursuing their own dreams, outside of a relationship. And inside a relationship if that is their own personal, well-considered choice.
In the past, I've noticed making myself small, reducing my own needs, taking up less space ... and luckily wasn't too far into the relationship to realize it. I wish everyone gets to be so lucky.
Yes to that view. It’s ok to focus on being a good human too— we are all on parallel journeys. We all start as infants and we travel the line of our life until it ends. We never know what others really think, so what they think doesn’t need to restrict or impact us, or design and label us.
Women need to develop independence, yes but also guide society towards interdependence because they rugged American individualism hasn’t done much good, really. We need to become a collective.
I’m probably not the stereotypical reader here, but I think the big thing is Carpenter isn’t passive, whereas Abrams to some extent is.
Sabrina sings about her boundaries very clearly (Opposite, Feather, Good Graces, Busy Woman) and even in Juno they’re pretty apparent. The nice thing (marketing?) is that they’re boundaries and goals everyone can agree are good.
There’s no sense of powerlessness or inherent insufficiency/insecurity, which is something sad one can find, especially in Olivia Rodrigo.
And as an aspiring fantasy author *don’t* get me started on the “heroes” and “heroines” of BookTok.
Oh Celeste! I’m just engrossed in the article, grieving its inevitable end…and then you throw down a mic drop that made me go from angry indignation to a true laugh out loud.
I’ve lived the Mormon “culture”. It’s patriarchy is the most subtle of obusive forms. Marie Osmund has been the teen idol of many. How she has stayed in Mormonism says plenty. I had to leave. I’m still scarred but recovering. I’ve watched her and felt for her many times. The pattern of our world seems to be submissive women. We all pay a price. I long for better.
Same 😔
I’m sorry for what you experienced. I’m proud you saved yourself. That’s knowing your power.