I agree with everything written here, but in addition to internalized misogyny, women want to excuse or minimize their partner's bad behavior because they feel ashamed about being partnered with such a garbage man. I see this in my psychotherapy practice over and over, where women try to defend or justify their man's bad behavior (or take a long time to disclose it to me at all). They're not just worried about how his behavior makes him look bad, but how it makes them look bad for remaining partnered with such a douchebag. The rational goes something like this: "He can't be that bad because only a stupid, weak woman would be with a man who did the thing my man did. I don't want to see myself as a stupid, weak woman, and I also don't want to completely disrupt my life by leaving him, so here are all the reasons why the thing he did wasn't as bad as it appears to be." And it's not just Mormon wives who fall into this trap. I'm in the Seattle suburbs where most of my clients are educated, successful, secular, liberal women, and I still see this over and over and over. There are sadly a lot of garbage men in the world, and a lot of sad women covering for them.
This is really interesting, it made me stop and realize the ways I 'curate the environment' for my husband so I don't need to deal with the fallout from his discomfort ... that's a result of his choices. So thank you. While I don't have a ready answer for exactly how I stop doing this, it's made me think and I'm certainly going to start!
Thanks Andrea- I think it’s especially common for moms in survival mode who just don’t have the bandwidth the deal with their husbands mood on top of everything else. So they make sure the house is in order, the kids aren’t bothering him, she takes over more than her fair share of household duties to not have to ask him to do his fair share and deal with the pushback, etc, etc. I started noticing all sorts of things when I read Codependent No More ❤️❤️
I think this is an important point. I’ve witnessed a lot of men taking their discomfort out on the women closest to them. Because they haven’t been given opportunities to learn how to deal with their discomfort and/or (often) haven’t taken the opportunities they have been given, they don’t know how to regulate themselves and it gets ugly for the women in their lives.
As always, another thought-provoking post! I look forward to Sunday mornings because I know there will be another intelligent/insightful/entertaining post from you. Keep writing. Thank you!
This was brilliant - thank you for sharing. I really appreciated how thoughtfully you laid the two sides out - the reality of holding both sides accountable for their actions.
Celeste, thanks for your articles. I love reading them! So thought provoking! I am not generally a consumer of reality tv (with the exception of Queer Eye occasionally with my daughter) but I have been unable to stop myself from watching this show. Maybe because I live in the area it’s filmed, maybe because I’ve known women similar to these women, or maybe because I’m around the age of their moms, but it fascinates me. I feel so conflicted because these women are the breadwinners for their families and I admire that, and they talk about female empowerment (mock funeral for Layla’s divorce, etc). However, I could never identify what made me feel itchy about the show, until I read your article. The internalized misogyny is rampant. They are no different than devout Mormon housewives who uphold and support patriarchy obediently, these women just do it publicly and spend a lot more money in the process.
I felt conflicted too- I was definitely fist pumping them on during like Layla’s divorce party, Jessi crushing it in her business and every time they gave themselves permission to stand up for their own desires in the face of pressure from the church or families to conform. I just cringed a little when they kept saying momtok was all about female empowerment when… there’s still some digging to do there.
“These two things are true at the same time: 1. men are victims of this system. 2. men need to be held accountable for their actions.
These two things are also true at the same time: 1. women are victims of this system. 2. women need to be aware of the explicit and subtle ways we hold up this system.”
Haven't watched this show, but the characters in it remind me of women I know in my own life trying to make excuses for the terrible actions of their husbands, boyfriends, and male friends. We're all guilty of internalized misogyny in certain points of our life. I had the same feelings about men keeping their junk in their pants when the whole Roe v. Wade chaos was going on just a few years ago. It's actually terrifying driving by and seeing angry mobs in front of Planned Parenthood clinics.
I wondered as I watched the show why I disliked the women. I hated the men and I knew exactly why. I understand better why I felt such contempt for Jen, which side now was the only one with the last name displayed 🤷🏽♂️.
Natural consequences is one of the tenets of our parenting. When we devoid our children, and now I learned also others, we deny them the opportunity to learn from their own mistakes. We too must accept that life is best appreciated when it catches up with us, even when we hate it.
Yes so many connections to parenting here! You think the “nice” thing is to keep them from pain but then they never learn both from their mistakes or how to move past guilt and shame.
Needless to say, I loved this! I haven’t watched this far into the show yet but as soon as you mention the Jen covering for Zac op-Ed, my brain immediately was like, omg just like Ballerina Farm! Which of course if your point!
I loved all of this and especially tying it to internalized misogyny but I’m sad you’ve finished watching this bc it would be fun to watch together! As in “together” in a chat. I need someone to witness the sheer Mormon-ness of it w me :)
This makes me sad because it reminds me of the relationship dynamic I had with my ex-husband and how that was also a pattern carried in to relationships after him
I agree with everything written here, but in addition to internalized misogyny, women want to excuse or minimize their partner's bad behavior because they feel ashamed about being partnered with such a garbage man. I see this in my psychotherapy practice over and over, where women try to defend or justify their man's bad behavior (or take a long time to disclose it to me at all). They're not just worried about how his behavior makes him look bad, but how it makes them look bad for remaining partnered with such a douchebag. The rational goes something like this: "He can't be that bad because only a stupid, weak woman would be with a man who did the thing my man did. I don't want to see myself as a stupid, weak woman, and I also don't want to completely disrupt my life by leaving him, so here are all the reasons why the thing he did wasn't as bad as it appears to be." And it's not just Mormon wives who fall into this trap. I'm in the Seattle suburbs where most of my clients are educated, successful, secular, liberal women, and I still see this over and over and over. There are sadly a lot of garbage men in the world, and a lot of sad women covering for them.
Oh this is such an important point- thanks for brining it up Diana!
The cognitive dissonance is real.
This is really interesting, it made me stop and realize the ways I 'curate the environment' for my husband so I don't need to deal with the fallout from his discomfort ... that's a result of his choices. So thank you. While I don't have a ready answer for exactly how I stop doing this, it's made me think and I'm certainly going to start!
Thanks Andrea- I think it’s especially common for moms in survival mode who just don’t have the bandwidth the deal with their husbands mood on top of everything else. So they make sure the house is in order, the kids aren’t bothering him, she takes over more than her fair share of household duties to not have to ask him to do his fair share and deal with the pushback, etc, etc. I started noticing all sorts of things when I read Codependent No More ❤️❤️
I think this is an important point. I’ve witnessed a lot of men taking their discomfort out on the women closest to them. Because they haven’t been given opportunities to learn how to deal with their discomfort and/or (often) haven’t taken the opportunities they have been given, they don’t know how to regulate themselves and it gets ugly for the women in their lives.
As always, another thought-provoking post! I look forward to Sunday mornings because I know there will be another intelligent/insightful/entertaining post from you. Keep writing. Thank you!
That’s so kind! Thank you Adrianne!
This was brilliant - thank you for sharing. I really appreciated how thoughtfully you laid the two sides out - the reality of holding both sides accountable for their actions.
Celeste, thanks for your articles. I love reading them! So thought provoking! I am not generally a consumer of reality tv (with the exception of Queer Eye occasionally with my daughter) but I have been unable to stop myself from watching this show. Maybe because I live in the area it’s filmed, maybe because I’ve known women similar to these women, or maybe because I’m around the age of their moms, but it fascinates me. I feel so conflicted because these women are the breadwinners for their families and I admire that, and they talk about female empowerment (mock funeral for Layla’s divorce, etc). However, I could never identify what made me feel itchy about the show, until I read your article. The internalized misogyny is rampant. They are no different than devout Mormon housewives who uphold and support patriarchy obediently, these women just do it publicly and spend a lot more money in the process.
I felt conflicted too- I was definitely fist pumping them on during like Layla’s divorce party, Jessi crushing it in her business and every time they gave themselves permission to stand up for their own desires in the face of pressure from the church or families to conform. I just cringed a little when they kept saying momtok was all about female empowerment when… there’s still some digging to do there.
“These two things are true at the same time: 1. men are victims of this system. 2. men need to be held accountable for their actions.
These two things are also true at the same time: 1. women are victims of this system. 2. women need to be aware of the explicit and subtle ways we hold up this system.”
AMEN!🙌🏻
Haven't watched this show, but the characters in it remind me of women I know in my own life trying to make excuses for the terrible actions of their husbands, boyfriends, and male friends. We're all guilty of internalized misogyny in certain points of our life. I had the same feelings about men keeping their junk in their pants when the whole Roe v. Wade chaos was going on just a few years ago. It's actually terrifying driving by and seeing angry mobs in front of Planned Parenthood clinics.
The double standard is infuriating.
You are such an amazing writer, wow I am mulling over your ideas. Bullseye 🎯
I wondered as I watched the show why I disliked the women. I hated the men and I knew exactly why. I understand better why I felt such contempt for Jen, which side now was the only one with the last name displayed 🤷🏽♂️.
Natural consequences is one of the tenets of our parenting. When we devoid our children, and now I learned also others, we deny them the opportunity to learn from their own mistakes. We too must accept that life is best appreciated when it catches up with us, even when we hate it.
Yes so many connections to parenting here! You think the “nice” thing is to keep them from pain but then they never learn both from their mistakes or how to move past guilt and shame.
another fine article! thank you so much!
Great article
🤍
Needless to say, I loved this! I haven’t watched this far into the show yet but as soon as you mention the Jen covering for Zac op-Ed, my brain immediately was like, omg just like Ballerina Farm! Which of course if your point!
I loved all of this and especially tying it to internalized misogyny but I’m sad you’ve finished watching this bc it would be fun to watch together! As in “together” in a chat. I need someone to witness the sheer Mormon-ness of it w me :)
This makes me sad because it reminds me of the relationship dynamic I had with my ex-husband and how that was also a pattern carried in to relationships after him